[mike777]

Assume not playing equal level conversion.

Looking for suggestions on:
1) New suit non-jump rebid after a takeout x, hcp and suit quality?
Example: 16-18 and XXXXX?
2) Jump new suit rebid after a takeout X, hcp and suit quality?
Example: 19+ and XXXXX?

Thank you in advance.

[luke warm]

since we've been talking about this, i'll go ahead and share ron klinger's suggestions (from that same book i mentioned in another thread)... he has 3 types of t/o double:

type A - 12-15 hcp
type B - 16-18 hcp
type C - 19+ hcp

according to him, with a type A you x then pass partner's minimum reply (assuming the hand isn't one you'd overcall 1nt on).. with a type B, raise partner's suit or bid a new suit... with a type C, jump raise partner, jump in a new suit, bid cheapest nt with 19-21, jump in nt with 22-23, or cuebid ops' suit.. both nt bids must have a stopper in ops' suit and the cuebid shows uncertainty as to game OR is used to simply force pard to bid... so:

(1h) x (p) 1s (p) p = type A
(1h) x (p) 1s (p) 2c, d, or s = type B
(1h) x (p) 1s (p) 3c, d, or s = type C
(1h) x (p) 1s (p) 1nt = type C, 19-21
(1h) x (p) 1s (p) 2nt = type C, 22-23
(1h) x (p) 1s (p) 2h = type C, 19+


edit: gonna check that later and will correct if wrong

[han]

I agree with Jimmy's structure, except that I would not bid a new suit with 16-18 points, I think that that would be a better hand. Off course, this is a matter of style, and depends on your upper limit for overcalls. From earlier discussions it is clear that the more modern style is to overcall on quite good hands.

[Flame]

New suit after you doubled show a hand that was too good for overcalling this suit in the first place. Now if you have double 1d and then bid heart it mean your hand is too good for 1h , this in my partnership would be a good 17 hcp.
if you doubled 1d and then bid clubs, it mean your hand was too good for 2c overcall which in my system would be more like a good 19.
Since these new suits over doulbe arent forcing, they need a max strengh too, which will be few hcp more, maybe 17-21,19-22 and when i have a better hand id double and cue bid.
Jumps over double is rare probebly very strong hand with a solid or semi solid sut.

[pclayton]

This discussion came up after the game last night.

Distinguish between the following sequences:

(1♣) - Dbl - (Pass) - 1♠
(pass) - ?

What is 2♥? is it forcing?
What is 3♥? is it forcing?
What is 4♥?

What call would you make holding: A, AQJTxxx, KJ9x, A?

[luke warm]

Quote

Distinguish between the following sequences:

(1♣) - Dbl - (Pass) - 1♠
(pass) - ?

What is 2♥? is it forcing?

not forcing, 16-18 with hearts

Quote

What is 3♥? is it forcing?

forcing, 19+... much like a jump shift

Quote

What is 4♥?

i'd play that as a 3 or, maybe, 4 loser hand

Quote

What call would you make holding: A, AQJTxxx, KJ9x, A?

i'd bid 4♥ ... 3♥ is possible, but i'd be afraid of bidding mishaps when i bid rkc... if 4♥ shows 3, maybe 4 losers pard needs to only count cover cards... hell i show a self-sustaining suit, so with the ♥K or ♦A i'd expect him to bid rkc

[the hog]

"QUOTE
What call would you make holding: A, AQJTxxx, KJ9x, A?


i'd bid 4♥ ... 3♥ is possible, but i'd be afraid of bidding mishaps when i bid rkc... if 4♥ shows 3, maybe 4 losers pard needs to only count cover cards... hell i show a self-sustaining suit, so with the ♥K or DA i'd expect him to bid rkc "

Uh Jimmy, you might want to rethink this one.
I suspect you would also bid 4H with
A, AQJTxxx, KJ9x, x
as just the DQ in partner's hand will give you a good play for 4. There is no way you can diagnose this, so you may as well just bid the game.

[mike777]

4h, not quite 2c then 4h but close.

[luke warm]

The_Hog, on Jan 19 2005, 07:43 PM, said:

Uh Jimmy, you might want to rethink this one.
I suspect you would also bid 4H with
A, AQJTxxx, KJ9x, x
as just the DQ in partner's hand will give you a good play for 4. There is no way you can diagnose this, so you may as well just bid the game.

my understanding is, i hold that hand and the bidding has gone (1c) x (p) 1s (p) and it's my bid

to me, 3h here is forcing (19+) and more balanced, and 4h is one suited and shows the 3/4 loser hand... so yes, with or without the club ace you can just bid 4h...

[flytoox]

pclayton, on Jan 20 2005, 01:06 AM, said:

This discussion came up after the game last night.

Distinguish between the following sequences:

(1♣) - Dbl - (Pass) - 1♠
(pass) - ?

What is 2♥? is it forcing?
What is 3♥? is it forcing?
What is 4♥?

What call would you make holding: A, AQJTxxx, KJ9x, A?

I think in standard treatment is that none of them is forcing. I would bid 4H with that hand.

IN competitive auction, partscore is the main goal, game is occasional, slam is unlikely. If you have a strong game force hand, you need to cue after double. Most of time, I think it is not a bad idea to bid what you thinnk you can make.

[whereagles]

1C dbl pass 1S
p...2/3/4H

2H = 18-20 with 5 hearts NF
3H = strong 2 in hearts NF
4H = whatever bidder feels like. NF but resp can raise with fit + controls (e.g. Axxx Kx xxxx xxx).

At least that's how I play it

[luke warm]

flytoox, on Jan 20 2005, 05:32 AM, said:

I think in standard treatment is that none of them is forcing. I would bid 4H with that hand.

IN competitive auction, partscore is the main goal, game is occasional, slam is unlikely. If you have a strong game force hand, you need to cue after double. Most of time, I think it is not a bad idea to bid what you thinnk you can make.

i guess it depends on what the bids mean following the double... if 2h shows (as klinger says) a 16-18 hand, then it's not forcing (it's limited)... however, i'm not sure the same is true for 3h... i doubled, you bid, and now my jump to 3h shows 19+... you know i'm either not totally balanced or i don't have a stopper in their suit, else 1 or 2 nt...

but i agree, 4h is probably better with the original hand and the one ron showed

[whereagles]

Yes.. a direct 4H is good. If they bid over it.. double

[mike777]

Klinger plays 3h as what? 19+ to what? and it is game forcing when p can have zero?

Always thought double and then cuebid showed a strong 2 game force hand type so all other bids were weaker in some way.

[luke warm]

he doesn't put a limit on it, at least not that i've found... what i wrote above is all i've seen on his methods, but ron probably knows his style inside and out

probably 3h isn't forcing, if not it should limit the hand to 20, 21 i'd think...