[mikeh]

opening lead is the heart J, RHO plays the 3 in tempo. Plan the play. The opps are club-level players who play standard methods

---

Edit: I put this up before the caffeine kicked in and missed a spot in the diagram: we didn't have the 2! I was just typing in random low cards N-S: I got all the honours, and all cards 8 and higher right. Sorry: it was possible, at the table, that RHO had 32 or stiff or xx3: my apologies.

[gszes]

if lho has found a dagger opening lead so be it but IMO my best
chance appears to be hearts breaking 52. Since I have to take all
of my finesses into rho there are no winning plays available if hearts
split 43 and I must lose 2 finesses.

duck trick 1 and hope for the miraculous 52 split with split club honors.


and quit overbidding:))))))))))

[ArtK78]

Assuming that the ♥3 can be trusted, RHO has one or three hearts. So, if RHO gains the lead, the opps can cash either 3 heart tricks or no heart tricks.

Meanwhile, I have 7 tricks so far - one spade, one heart, 4 diamonds (assuming the J comes down in the first three rounds) and one club. I need an additional trick in each black suit (assuming that the ♥A is in the opening leader's hand).

Entries are an issue. I am in my hand at trick one. I need to find the ♠K and one club honor on my left. So, I run the ♠Q at trick 2. If this wins I will be in my hand at trick 3 for a club play. If the ♠Q is covered I can reenter my hand with the fourth round of diamonds for a club play, and later I can reenter my hand with the ♠Q for a second club play.

If the hearts are 4-3 and the ♠K and one club honor are onside, the defense is helpless.

I don't see any reason for adopting any other line, but I leave it to others to show me where I am wrong.

EDIT: I see that gszes says that we should duck trick one. That may be true if the ♥3 cannot be trusted as a count card. But it is accurate and we duck, LHO can shift effectively to a low spade from Kxxx (the spots are not relevant as we have none). Now, upon winning a club, RHO will continue spades, setting up 2 spades, a club and 2 hearts for the defense. Meanwhile, since we did not win trick one, we are a trick short - 2 clubs, 2 spades and 4 diamonds only.

[MrAce]

gszes, on 2013-July-22, 08:55, said:

if lho has found a dagger opening lead so be it but IMO my best
chance appears to be hearts breaking 52. Since I have to take all
of my finesses into rho there are no winning plays available if hearts
split 43 and I must lose 2 finesses.

duck trick 1 and hope for the miraculous 52 split with split club honors.


and quit overbidding:))))))))))

It may be an overbid but that doesnt't give you free pass to butcher the hand you know

Check out Art's logic above.

[andrei]

ArtK78, on 2013-July-22, 09:01, said:

EDIT: I see that gszes says that we should duck trick one. That may be true if the ♥3 cannot be trusted as a count card. But it is accurate and we duck, LHO can shift effectively to a low spade from Kxxx (the spots are not relevant as we have none). Now, upon winning a club, RHO will continue spades, setting up 2 spades, a club and 2 hearts for the defense. Meanwhile, since we did not win trick one, we are a trick short - 2 clubs, 2 spades and 4 diamonds only.

We can play a heart honour first and clubs after.

[ArtK78]

andrei, on 2013-July-22, 13:26, said:

We can play a heart honour first and clubs after.

That does seem to work, but it would fail if the lead were from Jx. It would make RHO's 3 at trick one rather peculiar if that were the case.

I guess that ducking followed by playing the suit works when the lead was from 5, and you are no worse off if the lead was from 4.

EDIT: I have to admit that ducking the first heart and then leading the suit back is counter-intuitive, but it does work here and it has no risk attached to it. Since it covers more situations than winning at trick one, I will have to go with it.

[quiddity]

I'm confused.. why is everyone assuming that RHO would signal count on trick one?

[FrancesHinden]

ArtK78, on 2013-July-22, 09:01, said:

EDIT: I see that gszes says that we should duck trick one. That may be true if the ♥3 cannot be trusted as a count card. But it is accurate and we duck, LHO can shift effectively to a low spade from Kxxx (the spots are not relevant as we have none). Now, upon winning a club, RHO will continue spades, setting up 2 spades, a club and 2 hearts for the defense. Meanwhile, since we did not win trick one, we are a trick short - 2 clubs, 2 spades and 4 diamonds only.

Why should RHO be giving count? Attitude is far more normal.
Also, while they may be able to switch effectively, generally people don't.

[ArtK78]

quiddity, on 2013-July-22, 13:54, said:

I'm confused.. why is everyone assuming that RHO would signal count on trick one?

Isn't that normal on an honor lead which is presumably from length?

[nige1]

ArtK78, on 2013-July-22, 09:01, said:

Assuming that the ♥3 can be trusted, RHO has one or three hearts. So, if RHO gains the lead, the opps can cash either 3 heart tricks or no heart tricks. Meanwhile, I have 7 tricks so far - one spade, one heart, 4 diamonds (assuming the J comes down in the first three rounds) and one club. I need an additional trick in each black suit (assuming that the ♥A is in the opening leader's hand). Entries are an issue. I am in my hand at trick one. I need to find the ♠K and one club honor on my left. So, I run the ♠Q at trick 2. If this wins I will be in my hand at trick 3 for a club play. If the ♠Q is covered I can reenter my hand with the fourth round of diamonds for a club play, and later I can reenter my hand with the ♠Q for a second club play. If the hearts are 4-3 and the ♠K and one club honor are onside, the defense is helpless. I don't see any reason for adopting any other line, but I leave it to others to show me where I am wrong.
EDIT: I see that gszes says that we should duck trick one. That may be true if the ♥3 cannot be trusted as a count card. But it is accurate and we duck, LHO can shift effectively to a low spade from Kxxx (the spots are not relevant as we have none). Now, upon winning a club, RHO will continue spades, setting up 2 spades, a club and 2 hearts for the defense. Meanwhile, since we did not win trick one, we are a trick short - 2 clubs, 2 spades and 4 diamonds only.

If gszes is right about the distribution, then his line seems reasonable.

If Artk78 is right and West exits with a ♠ at trick two, then gszes might still succeed if he susses out what's happening, because the ♦s put pressure on West.

---

[Stephen Tu]

ArtK78, on 2013-July-22, 14:09, said:

Isn't that normal on an honor lead which is presumably from length?

No. If you lead from say AJTx, and got in after declarer wins K, don't you want to know whether or not partner has the Q so you know whether you can just run the suit or have to get partner on lead?

People give count on "power" leads asking for count/unblock (old-fashioned std lead of ace, though king is gaining popularity), or if partner leads *low*, and you can't beat dummy's Q or lower (or some agree "J or lower", so that one still gives attitude about the J if dummy say wins the Q from Qx, so partner who lead from KTxxx can lead the suit again).

[ArtK78]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-July-22, 14:22, said:

No. If you lead from say AJTx, and got in after declarer wins K, don't you want to know whether or not partner has the Q so you know whether you can just run the suit or have to get partner on lead?

People give count on "power" leads asking for count/unblock (old-fashioned std lead of ace, though king is gaining popularity), or if partner leads *low*, and you can't beat dummy's Q or lower (or some agree "J or lower", so that one still gives attitude about the J if dummy say wins the Q from Qx, so partner who lead from KTxxx can lead the suit again).

If partner leads the J from length, which means he has JTxx(x), KJTx(x) or AJTx(x), and dummy has xxx, I will play the Q if I have it. I will certainly play the Q from Qx so as not to block the suit. So it makes no sense for the spot card to be attitude. (From JTxx(x), partner will probably have the 9 or 8 along with his JT, or he might have led low).

There are exceptions to unblocking, but with dummy having xxx, the only relevant exceptions would be if partner was leading from a 3 or fewer card holding where unblocking could cost a trick - such as AJx or KJx. Not very likely. JTxx is a problem holding, but, again, partner might have led small from JTxx.

Unblocking is also right in most cases when third hand holds the J and dummy wins the Q(x) at trick one. Unblocking the J is safe most of the time. That requires more judgment, and knowledge about the rest of the hand is probably very relevant.

The key to most unblocking situations is knowledge that partner is leading from length. That is certainly likely to be true on this hand, but it may not be clear on other hands.

[mikeh]

I mentioned in the OP that the opps were club players: expecting or fearing that they could find a shift from Kxxx in spades is fanciful. This was a small town Sectional against locals. When the J wins, almost no player of their level is ever shifting away from the spade K.

Whether RHO was giving count or attitude is equally unclear, and most club players would look blank if you tried to find out what their agreements are.

As it was, I thought I recognized the textbook situation in which I had to guard against AJ10xx on my left. AJ10x, my play is irrelevant.

Given that RHO played the 2nd highest outstanding spot, I assumed that if attitude, he didn't like it (believe me, these players don't know udca), and if count I was guessing, but as I said AJ10x is irrelevant.

So I made the textbook duck. I hope to score 4 diamonds, 1 heart, 2 spades and 2 clubs.

So LHO continued a heart to the A!!!!!

RHO had Axx and had played his lowest heart without any care in the world. I guess his partner has never led J from KJ10x(x).

Actually, that ought to have occurred to me. I am really not at all sure whether I would have got any meaningful answer, but I should have asked rho what they usually lead from a holding such as AJ10xx or KJ10xx. I am willing to bet, after some reflection, that they would have led 4th best and thought that to be standard. I'm not at all sure that they would have told me that, because my experience in these small town events is that the question confuses them.

To make matters worse, the club KQ were offside, so I went down 2 in a contract where my grandmother, had she played bridge, would have made the game (and where, had I been defending, game would also have made).

I did give the hand to the only Grand Life Master in the field, and congratulated him on losing 13 imps when he, too, ducked

[Stephen Tu]

ArtK78, on 2013-July-22, 14:28, said:

If partner leads the J from length, which means he has JTxx(x), KJTx(x) or AJTx(x), and dummy has xxx, I will play the Q if I have it. I will certainly play the Q from Qx so as not to block the suit. So it makes no sense for the spot card to be attitude. (From JTxx(x), partner will probably have the 9 or 8 along with his JT, or he might have led low).

If you have Qxx, and are always overtaking, then if partner had JT8x, 2nd lead has to come from your side of the table else he is leading into declarer's A9. If you just give attitude then he can safely continue.

If partner has say AJT8, and you overtake, again partner may not want to lead from his side since maybe you only have Qx not Qxx and he doesn't want to let declarer's K9xx score an extra trick. But if you just signal attitude from Qxx, he can go ahead and pick up your side's 3 tricks in the suit.

Maybe if you can guarantee partner always 5 cd suit to lead then it's reasonable to play "give count if dummy has 3 small", but I don't know anyone with such specific agreements, the default signal at trick 1 is attitude. My partners only have 4 cd suits to lead sometimes. Also sometimes you need an entry with the Q in that suit later in the hand to lead something else through, instead of squandering at trick 1.

[ArtK78]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-July-22, 15:01, said:

If you have Qxx, and are always overtaking, then if partner had JT8x, 2nd lead has to come from your side of the table else he is leading into declarer's A9. If you just give attitude then he can safely continue.

If partner has say AJT8, and you overtake, again partner may not want to lead from his side since maybe you only have Qx not Qxx and he doesn't want to let declarer's K9xx score an extra trick. But if you just signal attitude from Qxx, he can go ahead and pick up your side's 3 tricks in the suit.

Maybe if you can guarantee partner always 5 cd suit to lead then it's reasonable to play "give count if dummy has 3 small", but I don't know anyone with such specific agreements, the default signal at trick 1 is attitude. My partners only have 4 cd suits to lead sometimes. Also sometimes you need an entry with the Q in that suit later in the hand to lead something else through, instead of squandering at trick 1.

My unblock is based on the fact that there is xxx in dummy, so it is either safe to unblock or necessary to unblock (Qx). If dummy's holding is shorter, then it is a different situation. The lead of the J from JT8x is the only one worth worrying about.

With all due respect, this is a silly discussion.

[quiddity]

ArtK78, on 2013-July-22, 15:14, said:

My unblock is based on the fact that there is xxx in dummy, so it is either safe to unblock or necessary to unblock (Qx). If dummy's holding is shorter, then it is a different situation. The lead of the J from JT8x is the only one worth worrying about.

With all due respect, this is a silly discussion.

Regardless of whether it is safe to signal count with xxx in dummy on this particular auction because opener can always work out that 3rd-hand can always work out whether opener is leading from length - and I'm still not sure if that is the case - you've said that you think it is "normal" to do so. That is way off base. Almost everyone will follow a very simple algorithm with the queen here: unblock with Qx, otherwise give the standard trick-one signal.

[Fluffy]

mikeh, on 2013-July-22, 14:44, said:

So I made the textbook duck. I hope to score 4 diamonds, 1 heart, 2 spades and 2 clubs.

So LHO continued a heart to the A!!!!!

RHO had Axx and had played his lowest heart without any care in the world. I guess his partner has never led J from KJ10x(x).

When I read the OP I was thinking that you made an unsuccessful textbook play because of that hehe, I would always take the low heart as atitude, I think ducking is normal.

[MrAce]

Ducking will also lose when hearts are 6-1 or when RHO has ATxxx Axxx or Axx. But admittedly both are unlikely since MikeH said their signals are std. ( although they are obviously using vety different std signals or leads )

Mike can they be leading coded from HJT.. ? Perhaps thats why he ducked ? It is just bizzare to duck playing std leads since pd can be leading from KJTx(x) But i bet they just lead the fourth best from HJTx and J lead for them is always top of nothing or sequence. I can't think of anything else.


EDIT: This post actually created a totally new deceptive play in NT defense. When pd leads J and if 3rd seat is able to count that pd can not have more than 0-2 hcp, he can duck from Axx Axxx ATxxx and expect declarer to apply the text book duck

[gnasher]

I think that the key to this hand is not to play in an event where a question about carding is likely to get a blank look.

[mikeh]

gnasher, on 2013-July-24, 02:19, said:

I think that the key to this hand is not to play in an event where a question about carding is likely to get a blank look.

Not all of us live in a part of the world in which one can routinely get to events with good competition in a couple of hours or so

The toughest events I ever play in now, apart from WC's, is the CNTC, in which I play every couple of years or so, and it usually requires travelling thousands of kilometres from my home on an island in the Pacific.

I play the small events with friends, for the social side of bridge. This means I am probably more familiar with how the game is played by the masses than most experts. It also means I tend to get sloppy, and it definitely means I am hopelessly out of date on expert bidding practices

But I do get to recognize a lot of 'blank stare' situations.