[Jinksy]

QTxx
xx
KQ98
KQT

vs

AKJxx
Axx
AJx
xx

N dealt, and the auction was uncontested:

1C 1S
2S 3D
4S 4N
5D* 5H**
6S

*0/3
** Q ask

ATB

System was fairly basic, fairly standard stuff with no relevant complicated agreements.

[wank]

north's 4s was wrong. he can't have a worse hand. many people i know would even pass that as dealer. so sign off in 3s and then south will bid 4. perhaps north didn't realise 3d is a game try first and foremost.

as for south, he's worth a slam try. but it's time to cue, not keycard - north can have his bidding and slam is still crap, e.g. no club control.

[billw55]

wank, on 2013-December-02, 06:36, said:

north's 4s was wrong. he can't have a worse hand. many people i know would even pass that as dealer. so sign off in 3s and then south will bid 4. perhaps north didn't realise 3d is a game try first and foremost.

as for south, he's worth a slam try. but it's time to cue, not keycard - north can have his bidding and slam is still crap, e.g. no club control.

I think if 3♦ is a game try, north has an accept - look at those diamonds. Or if it was a game force, then 4♠ would be fast arrival. I would like to know what the agreement was about 3♦.

Also I think that the people you know who would pass the north hand as dealer are playing losing bridge.

As for south, he used keycard (and went on to slam) with two fast losers. Experts often tell me this is wrong; but then they sometimes recommend it in forum threads, and I get confused.

[MickyB]

Scoring and vul? Was North's 1C opening systemic?

[ggwhiz]

I agree that south should be cue bidding instead of KC and that north must accept a 3♦ game try.

It would have been more efficient for south to make the game try in hearts preparing to cue the diamond Ace next giving partner room to show a heart control. Even better if 2nt over 2♠ was forcing but I wouldn't spring that without prior discussion.

Bottom line, cue bidding towards slam should let you park it in 5♠ and in this case I think I would decline a game try in hearts.

[mcphee]

I blame the strong hand. The fact the N hand is a dog is not the issue. The 3D bid is I assume, forward going and to be treated as a game try. If the N hand is accepting the try they can, 1) advance with a forward going cue bid,for example after 3D, would 3H show a control card and say I have the help in D? I think this approach is sensible if 3D can also be and advance cue bid toward slam, 2)failing that 4S says I hope you make it. So now the stronger hand felt they could key card, found none and then inquired about the Q anyway. What could N do buy say he had it? Let's be honest and say S just hoped for better cards. In any case, why they opened 1C rather than 1D for me is strange as well.

[Jinksy]

MickyB, on 2013-December-02, 07:37, said:

Scoring and vul? Was North's 1C opening systemic?

IMPs, don't remember vul. What's your answer for both?

The 1C opening on that hand shape was not discussed.

[Cyberyeti]

ggwhiz, on 2013-December-02, 08:17, said:

Bottom line, cue bidding towards slam should let you park it in 5♠ and in this case I think I would decline a game try in hearts.

Can you always tell the difference between the N hand and the 4252 version where the slam is cold ?

As an aside, this is an odd side effect of a strong NT, you never get to show the opener as a weak balanced hand because you have to raise spades, after a weak 1N opener, there is no need to drive towards slam.

[billw55]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-December-02, 09:46, said:

Can you always tell the difference between the N hand and the 4252 version where the slam is cold ?

Bidding 1♦ over 1♣ with that hand would work. For those who always bid the major first, you have a point.

Anyway, clearly north is blameless. As for south, I am not sure if this is blameworthy, or just taking an aggressive view that didn't work out this time. If I was north, I wouldn't criticize.

[Cyberyeti]

billw55, on 2013-December-02, 10:12, said:

Bidding 1♦ over 1♣ with that hand would work. For those who always bid the major first, you have a point.

Anyway, clearly north is blameless. As for south, I am not sure if this is blameworthy, or just taking an aggressive view that didn't work out this time. If I was north, I wouldn't criticize.

Sorry, I forgot he opened the odd 1♣ not 1♦, I meant if the N hand was 4252 and the auction started 1♦-1♠-2♠ and on.

[mikeh]

It's tough to assess responsibility without knowing the methods in use. For instance, opening 1♣is simply wrong in most methods.

I would have no objection to passing as North: this hand type is one reason I usually play a weak 1N, so as to get it off my chest. The problem with opening this control-poor 12 counts is that partner rarely gets the joke until it is too late.

As it is, assuming the opening was systemic for the partnership, I sympathize with the acceptance of the game try. Yes, the N hand is crap, but maybe the heart doubleton has grown up, and while we have no Aces, we have the spade 10 and we have no jacks (the most overrated card in 4-3-2-1).

S was foolish.

As others have noted, N has lots of ways to accept the gametry. Any call beyond 3♠ commits to game, so S should LISTEN to the auction. He failed to ask himself: why didn't partner bid 4♣?

I am not saying that S would be excused for slamming over 4♣...he wouldn't be in my books. He would be worth another try: 4♦, hoping to hear 4♥ or anything but 4♠.

Keycard was idiotic.

S made a mistake that happens hundreds of times a day, or more, around the world in weak games. He overbid a 'good hand'. Weak players typically underbid weak hands that have grown up on the auction and overbid strong hands that have become worse. In this case, opener's failure to cue 4♣ made S's hand worse for slam purposes than it had looked a round earlier, but he failed to make the adjustment.

[kenrexford]

IMO (which is not mainstream), North should almost always cuebid on route to 4♠ if he has a club control. He did not, which seems to me errant.

If North was supposed to cue on route but did not, then he cannot have a club control, so South should pass 4♠. That part would be obvious, except that apparently North is not under compulsion to cue with club control and acceptance values.

Hence, agreements are important to unwind this mystery.

If North's failure to cue (1) denies first-round club control and (2) also denies something else (like denying X number of key cards), then South's analysis depends upon what North denied by not cuebidding. If North showed ostensibly a low-key-card maximum, then expecting the heart King might not be far-fetched, but then that puts one into the 15-17 world, which gets complicated, obviously.

Of course, if North denied some number of key cards already (or denied a club control), then 4NT seems redundant.

[billw55]

mikeh, on 2013-December-02, 11:02, said:

It's tough to assess responsibility without knowing the methods in use. For instance, opening 1♣is simply wrong in most methods.

I would have no objection to passing as North: this hand type is one reason I usually play a weak 1N, so as to get it off my chest. The problem with opening this control-poor 12 counts is that partner rarely gets the joke until it is too late.

As it is, assuming the opening was systemic for the partnership, I sympathize with the acceptance of the game try. Yes, the N hand is crap, but maybe the heart doubleton has grown up, and while we have no Aces, we have the spade 10 and we have no jacks (the most overrated card in 4-3-2-1).

S was foolish.

As others have noted, N has lots of ways to accept the gametry. Any call beyond 3♠ commits to game, so S should LISTEN to the auction. He failed to ask himself: why didn't partner bid 4♣?

I am not saying that S would be excused for slamming over 4♣...he wouldn't be in my books. He would be worth another try: 4♦, hoping to hear 4♥ or anything but 4♠.

Keycard was idiotic.

S made a mistake that happens hundreds of times a day, or more, around the world in weak games. He overbid a 'good hand'. Weak players typically underbid weak hands that have grown up on the auction and overbid strong hands that have become worse. In this case, opener's failure to cue 4♣ made S's hand worse for slam purposes than it had looked a round earlier, but he failed to make the adjustment.

Well, maybe south did worse than I thought.

As for opening the north hand though, I don't think there is any joke for south to get. OK, no aces, but no jacks either, plus two working tens and a 98. If you prefer 1NT, great (at any rate, you seem to be saying you would open the hand). But I would criticize an opening pass at least as much as south's bidding.

[gszes]

lets assume for grins n opened 1d instead of 1c if the 1c was systemically forced the follow ups
probably need to be included.
1d normal (where did that 1c bid come from anyway:))
1s normal
2s normal
3h normal can't bid 3d as that is invitational and passable if opener had only 3 spades
4c willing to go to game and since we have no clue how strong responder is we cue bid
4d cue since we did not bid 3d previous round hand has to be at least game forcing cue bid
4s nothing else to say atm
pass since opener could not bid 5c (AK) 5d (extra length) 4h (cue) we know there is a really good chance
we will have no play at all and might all too easily go down on a heart lead (the opps are listening too).

[ArtK78]

I have to admit that over the 3♦ game try I would bid 3♠, but I appear to be in the minority.

Yes, my diamonds couldn't be better opposite length. However, the rest of my hand is absolute rock bottom (with the exception of the doubleton heart).

I have my own theories about hand evaluation. Opposite a typical long-suit game try, one should promote secondary honors in the suit bid (I have them) and primary honors in off-suits. The KQT of clubs are neither here nor there - Axx is at least as good, maybe better. The doubleton heart has some value, but may be duplication. All in all, my hand may have improved marginally opposite a long-suit try in diamonds, but I want to slow down the auction. I doubt that partner will pass 3♠ on many hands where 4♠ is cold.

I know many players just look at the suit of the game try and bid game if they have values in that suit. I think that is a non-thinking approach to hand evaluation.

In any event, I agree with those who state that the 4♠ bid should deny a first round control in the rounded suits. A 3♥ bid doesn't promise a first round control, but it doesn't deny one. 4♠ denies controls in either of the off-suits (and diamonds also).