[benlessard]

---

2C is 4th suit GF. 4H = void, and 5C is 2 keycard with some slam interest (with wastage partner can bid 5D=not interested).

IMPS (edited)

[Cyberyeti]

Form of scoring ? If MPs I'm investigating 7, because I probably had >9 tricks in 3N so don't want to play 5♦ so will be bidding at least 6.

[han]

I don't think that we have enough information to make this decision.

Suppose that 4H was exclusion, and partner answered two keycards. Then we would be obliged to make a grand slam try, since partner is still unlimited. We are not in a position to sign off in 5 or 6. One could of course argue that we should not have asked for keycards, but that is besides the point.

It sounds like 4H was not exclusion, and partner chose to show keycards instead of cueing the spade ace. But what the implications regarding partner's strength are is not given so we cannot judge the situation. It is however clear that also in this position we should not be allowed to sign off in 6 if partner is unlimited.

[gszes]

P made a game forcing 2c call before we had a chance
to show them our unfortunate void in their first bid suit.

IF p had 17 outside hearts they had an easy leap
to 7d with 15/16 they will never let you stop below
6d even with a superb 13 like AK xxxx Kxxxx Kx responder
would have taken over the bidding themselves so we have
no fear there. The problem has become one of just how
much power outside hearts does p promise when they
answer keycard?

If they promise as few as 13 it would seem to be
a reasonable slam venture since we have all the
keys. The problem we have created for ourselves
is by showing the void we took contol of a hand
when the information we gather will probably not
be sufficient for us to make a rational decision on
how to proceed.

Having chosen this route (I would have bid 3n
over 3d which would have strongly hinted at the
heart shortness) since we have essentially forced
ourselves into 6d we should continue to ask for
more information. This will allow p to consider 7.
If we sign off in 6d we have no chance of 7 since
p will think we are missing a key card. That way if
p has a hand like A QJxx Kxx KQxxx they can safely
bid 7d with their surprise source of tricks.

[the_clown]

I dont see the point of bidding exclusion when you dont know what to do if partner shows 2 KC.

Anyway I would guess 6, should have some play. With a lot of useless heart values, he would have signed off.

[benlessard]

Its an optionnal exclusion, partner can signoff if hes minimum and has wasted values, anyway I think its sure that south got at least 2 keycards to jump into exclusion (worse case scenario 1K+Q and extras). So IMO south can safely just bid 6D and if partner got the stiff A of spades and 2 cards (KQ of clubs, or A of H and K of clubs) he can bid 7 easily.

Jumping to 4S without a S control is questionnable but if you dont do it showing your H void will be tough and partner will always like his A of H too much. Other than that i cannot see how it can backfired.

[mikeh]

I hate the 4♥ call. It's nice to have a toy with which to play, but it's silly to play with it when you have zero idea what to do once you've had your fun.

A useful rule seems to be that when partner is completely unlimited, you should probably NOT be the one using keycard of any form.

Add to that the rule that you should never ask for (or invite partner to show) keycards when you have no idea what to do next, and I think you have the start of a basic grasp of keycard.

I would have simply cue bid 4♣ and left the running to him.

Assuming I was called to fill in for the original 4♥ bidder, who was understandably taken ill when he realized how foolish that call had been, I would bid 5♦. That is not a drop dead bid: despite the evidence to the contrary, I would expect partner would understand that my use of this toy positively showed some slam interest.....and I can't imagine him passing 5♦ with any hand on which slam is good....htf can I have a hand that asked him to show keycards with slam interest, hears of 2 keys and interest, and then wants to bow out in game?

If I trusted partner as little as he ought to trust me, having perpetrated this 4♥ call with no clue as to how to handle the responses, I close my eyes and continue my masterminding by bidding 6♦.

[han]

I don't completely agree with mikeh's critique. I would also have preferred 4H to be a void showing bid without it also being a keycards ask, but as mikeh points out, if we bid 5D now then partner will know that we are not missing 2 aces. At the same time, 4H is our only opportunity to show heart shortness, let alone the void, and this may be very important information for partner. By bidding 4H followed by 5D we are showing the heart void but not enough to go on to slam by ourselves, even after the positive reaction from partner. That gives partner a better pictures than bidding a non-descript 4C.

While I recognize that many beginners over-use keycards, I really disagree with mikeh's first rule (no keycards when partner is completely unlimited). I'd say it is a terrible rule.