[pclayton]

Scoring: IMP

---

Playing against a few of BBO's 'halflings'. 3♣ on left, 3♥ on right.

[Flame]

ouch this is triable, I think the only solution is to play 4h as natural here.
Maybe its best to simplly generalize it to whenever you have 2 cue bids avaliable, the cue of the bid infront of you is natural.
This make less sense when the lho bid doesnt show a long suit, like 1c-1s
but make more sense when it does like over prempt or 1M opening.

[EricK]

I wonder whether double in this position should be psyche exposing.

If RHO is strong, we are rarely going to have a hand which genuinely wants to compete but can't bid 3♠ or 4♣, and if he is psyching we need a bid to expose it without getting too high.

Eric

[Free]

I agree with Eric: penalty is the only sensible use for a Dbl in this situation. Takeout is useless imo.

[mr1303]

What I play here is that double is take-out of clubs, and implies heart tolerance, so with 4 hearts, partner can leave it in quite happily. 4H is natural.

[pclayton]

I think this is a sensible solution:

Double: Penalty oriented of RHO's bid (but just not a string of trump; you need overcalling strength). Pard is expected to pull to the suit when RHO (assumably) runs.

Cue of preempter's suit: Takeout for the other 2 suits (in case RHO isn't kidding).

Bid of RHO's suit: VERY strong hand with RHO's suit. I remember a hand from Master Solver's many moons ago where you were dealt basically a strong 2 in a suit RHO psyched. This agreement would cover this contingency.

[Fluffy]

nothing agreed? thank you opponent you can bid 4♥ now, and 5♦ when they bid 5♣, if tehy bid 5♣ directly you would be in trouble.

[inquiry]

As diplomatic as ever justin is right. Double of 3H here is takeout, plain and simple. Not psyche exposing, not takeout of just clubs, takeout. Your choices are pass (we have to assume that 3H is forciing if no alert, so you will get a second chance to show your hearts, probably over 4C), or bid 4H if you just can't stand it. IF you play Misho's Meta defense, you can overcall 4♦ showing diamonds and a major (by agreement here, this can include hearts, as it is either major and after 3H, is more likely to be hearts as with spades and diamonds, you could bid 4C).

The concept that 3Hx is penalty is odd to me (all my doubles are for takeout until we have found a fit, unless they have a well known-and agreed conventional meaning like lightner or lead directing double of a transfer). I do play one exception. After (3y)-P-(3NT) when they are not vul and we are vul, I have relented and agree to play DOUBLE as penalty as that 3NT psyche is "risk free" if you don't.

Ben

[pclayton]

As I'm sure Justin remembers we played this against him and his partner Socutiesf. With the subject hand I overcalled 4♦. Justin, the 3♣ opener bid 4♠ (!), which looked like some kind of lead director (although its doubtful his pard would be on opening lead). My pard bid 5♦, which was a respectable spot when a he tabled: QTx, T98xxx, Axx, A. We all had a good laugh when we saw dummy's hearts. The psycher had Jxxx of diamonds, so I made 6 on heart lead (1-1).

Justin asks me in private: "Miss the 6-4? LOL". I said, "no, the SIX-FIVE".

I think my treatment is a useful one. With Justin's hand, the hand is a 4♣ cue bid. Something is up; while RHO may have hearts, there isn't enough in the deck for it to be a legitimate (and assumably forcing) 3♥ call.

Give me: AKxx, x, AKxxx, xxx and I have a REAL problem over 3♥.

[pclayton]

inquiry, on Jan 3 2005, 09:04 AM, said:

As diplomatic as ever justin is right. Double of 3H here is takeout, plain and simple. Not psyche exposing, not takeout of just clubs, takeout. Your choices are pass (we have to assume that 3H is forciing if no alert, so you will get a second chance to show your hearts, probably over 4C), or bid 4H if you just can't stand it. IF you play Misho's Meta defense, you can overcall 4♦ showing diamonds and a major (by agreement here, this can include hearts, as it is either major and after 3H, is more likely to be hearts as with spades and diamonds, you could bid 4C).

The concept that 3Hx is penalty is odd to me (all my doubles are for takeout until we have found a fit, unless they have a well known-and agreed conventional meaning like lightner or lead directing double of a transfer). I do play one exception. After (3y)-P-(3NT) when they are not vul and we are vul, I have relented and agree to play DOUBLE as penalty as that 3NT psyche is "risk free" if you don't.

Ben

I think a psyche over a preempt occurs often enough to warrant a defense against it. On Jeff Goldsmith's website, one of his old articles states that the action 2♥ - 2♠ turns out to be a psyche about 50% of the time. While I don't think its that often, I don't think passing with their suit and hoping to get in later is a sound idea. And what if the call is non-forcing? Then you certainly don't have the luxury of passing first.

[EricK]

Jlall, on Jan 3 2005, 04:51 PM, said:

Funny how hypocritical and double dummy this forum is. Imagine if phil had posted:

AKxx
A
AKxxx
xxx

3C p 3H to you...you would all unanimously X for takeout. However when he announces that they psyche and gives you this hand you all X "psyche exposing." For starters, you have no evidence that righty is even psyching other than that you were already told he was. If you have a hand where its clear RHO is psyching you just bid 4H. Some people need to learn what objectivity even means.

No system can work on all hands.

What hands will come up most often after the auction 3♣ 3♥? Either RHO has a genuine 3♥ bid in which case we will very rarely have a hand which is happy competing to the 4 level, or RHO is making some sort of bluff. By far the most common bluff in this situation is bidding a short ♥ suit with ♣ support. In that case, we are likely to have a strong hand with some ♥.

To be honest I don't recall ever seeing an auction like 3♣ 3♥ (X). I would be interested in seeing real life examples of it and also of the 3♣ 3♥ psyche, to see whether a take out double or penalty double has more use.

Eric

[Fluffy]

Jlall, on Jan 3 2005, 04:51 PM, said:

Funny how hypocritical and double dummy this forum is.

Agree, but there is also loads of people outside the forums that would double for penalty or take out depending on wich hand they were dealt, and when partner missunderstood would put a lot of ?????? and explian their 'obvious' bid, these people really make me mad.

[inquiry]

There has been 187 different hands in BBO tournment play the last few months that began

3m-(pass)-3M-DBL

Of these hands, the hand bidding 3M had 4 or less in the bid major 12 times. All the other times, he really had hearts, often without a fit for the minor. Since 3M was forcing, the double actually helped the pair out most often, stopping at 3 doubled rather than more doubled, but that is a diffeent issue.

Since you asked, rather than show all 187 hands, I will just show the 12 hands that began 3m-p-3M-DBL where teh 3M was bid without the real suit. I will not editorialize on the method (BTW, many people are playing dbl of 3M as penatly, but even when they do, their partners often do not, and vise versa, so here I think any agreement looks like better than no agreement)

Scoring: IMP

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West North East South

 -     3♦    Pass  3♠
 Dbl   Pass  Pass  Pass
 

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     3♣    Pass
 3♠    Dbl   4♣    Pass
 Pass  Pass  

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     3♦    Pass  3♠
 Dbl   Pass  Pass  4♣
 Dbl   4♦    Pass  Pass
 Pass  

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     3♦    Pass
 3♠    Dbl   Pass  Pass
 4♦    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     3♦
 Pass  3♠    Dbl   Pass
 Pass  4♣    4♠    5♣
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     3♣    Pass  3♠
 Dbl   Pass  Pass  4♣
 Pass  4♠    Pass  5♣
 Dbl   Pass  Pass  Pass
 

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     3♦    Pass
 3♠    Dbl   4♦    Pass
 5♦    Pass  Pass  Dbl
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     3♣    Pass
 3♠    Dbl   Pass  4♥
 5♣    5♥    5♠    6♥
 Dbl   Pass  6♠    Pass
 7♣    Pass  Pass  Dbl
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     3♣
 Pass  3♥    Dbl   Pass
 3♠    Dbl   Pass  Pass
 Pass  

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     3♦    Pass  3♥
 Dbl   Pass  Pass  4♦
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     3♦    Pass  3♥
 Dbl   Pass  3♠    4♦
 4♠    Dbl   Pass  Pass
 Pass  

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     3♦    Pass
 3♥    Dbl   Pass  3♠
 Pass  6♣    Pass  Pass
 Pass  

[whereagles]

Robson/Segal define

3x pass 3y dbl

as a penalty double of y. An exception to the "dbl is take-out until fit is found", obviously. To make a take-out double of x you have to pass and double later.

The 3x-p-3y psyche is rare, but it is very effective vs unprepared opps, so it's a close call whether to play double as take-out or as Robson recommends.

[inquiry]

whereagles, on Jan 3 2005, 03:17 PM, said:

Robson/Segal define

3x pass 3y dbl

Are you quite sure (not that this will alter my opinion that double should be takeout or, if you play Meta overcalls, look first for a club stopper for 3NT). I mean, I have read partnership bidding at bridge many times, and I don't remember even a discussion of this auction (3x=dbl takeout yes, 3x-dbl-3y-dbl penatly yes, but not 3x-p-3y-dbl)... feel free to point me to the approriate page.

BTW, I don't necessarily disagree with phil that his suggested way might be superior, I just don't know anyone that plays that specirfically (well, lots seem to play 3Hx as penatly as I noted in an earlier reply to this thread).

Ben

[whereagles]

Page 226.

[pclayton]

Looking over Ben's examples, its scary how well this psyche works; even with the double being 'intended' as penalty of the psyche. Seems the non-preempting side is being stolen blind most of the time.

[the hog]

Whereagles is correct. R & S do define it thus. You can play 4C as a hand showing the other 2 suits. 4D as D & H, and X as penalty.

[Fluffy]

pclayton, on Jan 3 2005, 07:56 PM, said:

Looking over Ben's examples, its scary how well this psyche works; even with the double being 'intended' as penalty of the psyche. Seems the non-preempting side is being stolen blind most of the time.

These examples are only the ones that started with a double, and if you look at the guys with 9/10 card suits you can soon discovers most of them aren't very high level.