[mr1303]

Hi everyone. I've been having an argument with someone about the best continuations after 2C with an overcall.

Specifically with this hand:

---

Let us suppose that you open this 2C, and have a 3C overcall from LHO, passed back to you.

What do you do, and what information do you gain from partner's pass?

Mark

[HeartA]

mr1303, on Dec 31 2004, 04:02 PM, said:

Hi everyone. I've been having an argument with someone about the best continuations after 2C with an overcall.

Specifically with this hand:

---

Let us suppose that you open this 2C, and have a 3C overcall from LHO, passed back to you.

What do you do, and what information do you gain from partner's pass?

Mark

I would dbl for take-out.

[luke warm]

me too...

[mr1303]

If you'd double for take-out, what would double by partner be?

[luke warm]

huh?

[inquiry]

I would double. This double is for takeout. Simple.

Since I will DOIUBLE for takeout what would partner's double of 3♣'s be? Not penalty, because he can pass waiting for me to reopen with a doulbe (which surely will come if partner is long in clubs after the overcall). So what is partner's double of 3♣? It would have been for takeout and showing some values.

[WrecksVee]

mr1303, on Jan 1 2005, 02:56 AM, said:

If you'd double for take-out, what would double by partner be?

I assume this refers to your question as to what partner's pass over the Opp's 3♣ meant?

One response here assumes Responder's double would have been takeout.

I have seen the idea that Responder's double here warns partner of a worthless hand. Partner can then pass for penalties sure that there is no slam. With something of value Responder passes and waits for Opener to reopen. Of course the auction could be at 5♣+ when it gets back to Opener, but that is true for either agreement.

Either idea is possible depending on what the partnership agrees. In a pick up partnership on BBO etc. I have no idea what the concensus would be.

Thanks for adding a point to my list to discuss with my regular partners!

[luke warm]

double by pard should show a negative hand, pass would be positive

[Dwingo]

I thought it would be best to refer this to the Expert consensus found in Bridge World Standard bidding 2001 found in the www.bridgeworld.com website

Quoting from BWS Competitive Bidding methods

Quote

B. Competition After Our Two-Club Opening

  If two clubs is overcalled, responder’s double shows double-negative strength and a pass is forcing. Opener’s double of the overcall shows a balanced hand.

  There is no agreement about responder’s actions after two clubs is doubled.

  After a negative response to two clubs and an overcall,
1) opener’s pass is forcing;

2) opener’s double is for penalty.

Would be interested to know, if Experts really played it is this way after 2C intervention.

[luke warm]

i play this way after a strong 1C opening, don't know what the experts do... double of overcall by responder shows 0-5, pass 6+... double of lho's bid by declarer is takeout, if he doubles rho's bid it's penalty

[Fluffy]

Double is take out with balanced tendency

pass by partner is take out, double would be penalty.

[inquiry]

I gave what my bidding would be (all my doubles when we have not found a trump fit are for "takeout". Bear in mind that my partners will leave high level takeout doubles in more often than low level ones). The question now has become what is expert treatment. I think the consensus expert opinion would be that....

2C-(3C)-DBL is penalty (i play takeout)

2C-(3C)-Pass-(Pass)
DBL -- is also penatly (I play it as takeout).

Of course, if you have ever read bidding contest even using a standard system like BWS, you will see getting an expert consensus is often (say 40% of time) difficult to achieve. :-)

As an example, let me give you a hand from BBO played by a TRUE expert (Kraft).

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 -     Pass  Pass  2♣
 3♠    Pass  Pass  Dbl
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

---

If NS were playing dbl over 3!S as penatly, I would double as north. If playing 3!Sx as penalty, I would be hesitant to double I guess I would take a shot at 3NT. This won NS 11 imps. So either method is playable and can get your penalty when opponents go nuts.. .but using it as takeout helps iwth hands like the on in the original post in this thread.


Ben

[mr1303]

So if you play that double from both sides is take-out, if partner were now to bid 3D or 3S, this should now be passable, since:

a) partner could have doubled to show useful values
partner could have jumped to show a shapely hand with limited high card values
c) partner could have passed your double for penalties with a defensive looking hand

[keylime]

Sorry y'all - my double's absolute penalty at all forms of scoring; I'm a Crane believer [take the sure profit].

[Gerben47]

Absolutely 100% takeout. Penalty doubles are not 'sure profit'. Lacking a takeout double can be trouble as well.

[flytoox]

With 53 Majors, I prefer 3H to dbl. Pd's pass should be at least encouraging. Otherwise he should dbl to warn you.

[flytoox]

Gerben47, on Jan 2 2005, 08:57 PM, said:

Absolutely 100% takeout. Penalty doubles are not 'sure profit'. Lacking a takeout double can be trouble as well.

Depend on how you define abosolutely. At least I think it is reasonable to play dbl here as penalty.