[arrows]

In a rubber game, let's say it's both white, you opened 1♥ with
the following hand:

♠ 94
♥ AJT872
♦ J
♣ AKJ6

Your partner responded 2♦ which is natural and game forcing, and your RHO,
who never gives you a break, preempt with 3 ♠, what should you do
now?

And would you make a different choice at all if the score method is IMP team?

[mike777]

4 Clubs

Since we open very light, 2d promises 14+hcp, big fan of bidding out shape, esp. under pressure.

I could have so much less for a pass.

[whereagles]

Double, take-out. Would prefer an extra diamond, but nobody's perfect

Maybe partner can pass!

[inquiry]

I double. We have not found a fit yet, so this double is for takeout, and is looking for a strain. Since this is rubber, if parnter happens to have a good hand with four spades that he was planning a reverse on (say 6D and 4S), this double will work out well when he converts to penatly.

Ben

[Fluffy]

WE are in GF, so pass is the takeout, I pass.

[luke warm]

the trouble with a forcing pass shows when pard bids 4d... the trouble with double is it (even if for takeout) puts a lot of pressure on partner, who might not be sure it's t/o (after all, most pairs play a double in a forcing auction is for business)... i'd bid 4c because if i don't any club fit is lost... 2nd choice is pass... if partner bids 4d i guess i bid 4h

[Antoine Fourrière]

4♣. But since pass is forcing and double is punitive (and 3N should be played by responder), I think 3N would be more useful either as a club transfer (allowing responder to bid 4♣ when he has nothing obvious to bid) or as a real takeout.

[whereagles]

Fluffy, on Dec 14 2004, 01:10 AM, said:

WE are in GF, so pass is the takeout, I pass.

You can play it both ways in a game-forcing situation:

1. Pass = take-out, double = penalty
2. Pass = asks pard to double, double = take out

You just have to agree with pard what "version" you play. They are similar in effectiveness, so it doesn't matter much how you play.

[Fluffy]

whereagles, on Dec 14 2004, 10:31 AM, said:

You just have to agree with pard what "version" you play. They are similar in effectiveness, so it doesn't matter much how you play.

I think this statement describes 100% conventions and agreements, after all the only important thing is that partner understands the meaning, the others are just nuances and matter much less than it seems .

[inquiry]

luke warm, on Dec 13 2004, 08:31 PM, said:

the trouble with a forcing pass shows when pard bids 4d... the trouble with double is it (even if for takeout) puts a lot of pressure on partner, who might not be sure it's t/o (after all, most pairs play a double in a forcing auction is for business)... i'd bid 4c because if i don't any club fit is lost... 2nd choice is pass... if partner bids 4d i guess i bid 4h

The problem with forcing pass is you might miss 6♣ when partner chooses to show his ♠ stopper rather than his club suit. So, in fact, penalty double versus takeout double here does make quite a difference.

The takeout double allows you to show interest in clubs BELOW the level of 3NT, and allows you to pass if you have a penatly double hand... if you are long in spades, odds are great your partner will reopen with a takeout double which you can then convert. And not playing double as takeout, you see a lot of the responders have rebid 4♣ or 4♥, being forced 1) to give up all hope of punishing them on a misfit for yourside (if your partner hand diamonds and spades), 2) given up all hope of playing maybe the last makable game (3NT), and 3) haven't placed enough emphasis on hearts (by bidding 4♣), or placed too much empahsis on hearts and ignored clubs by bidding 4♥. With you holding AKJ of clubs, if you rebid hearts, your partner will not be thinking of introducing a club suit headed by the Queen at the four level!!!!

If you play double here as penalty, you have no good option with this hand. Pass simply says I have no bid. And it might include 3 spades, it might include four clubs it might not. It is best to stay flexible. Here a pass should be uised with one of two hands. 1) One that wants to punish 3♠, 2) one without great ♦ support but without nice hearts and four plus clubs. Double shows the present hand perfectly. As you know the doubling rule I live by is... all non-conventional doubles are for takeout until we find a fit (or implied fit).

Ben

[pclayton]

I think its pretty standard to play dbl of any interference over a 2/1 as penalty.

If you have a specific agreement for the double to be takeout, this is obviously a great hand for it.

Otherwise, I think 4♣ is a reasonable call here. You can retreat back to ♥'s over the expected 4♦.

The first time my new pard doubled 2/1 interference, he actually intended it as support! Feh

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Dec 14 2004, 12:06 PM, said:

I think its pretty standard to play dbl of any interference over a 2/1 as penalty.  If you have a specific agreement for the double to be takeout, this is obviously a great hand for it. Otherwise, I think 4♣ is a reasonable call here. You can retreat back to ♥'s over the expected 4♦.

If you play all doubles after 2/1 as penalty, then you will have a lot of hands that are hard to bid. You really can play the double as penalty, and pass when you want your partner to reopen with a takeout double and you can pass... and here you can do it SAFELY as 2/1 is game force and partner WILL REOPEN.

You may think it is reasonable to bid 4♣ with this hand with the "safety" or being able to retreat to 4♥... but you can't retreat to 3NT nor can you retreat to 3♠X when your partner holds...

♠Jxxxx ♥x ♦AKxxxxx ♣x (see the 5-7 hand iwth clubs and spades you yourself recommended biddng 2♣ on... or better still if parnter has...

♠AQT2 ♥void ♦AQJxxxx ♣xxx, where are you going???

Since you don't know what your parnter holds, a takeout double is the most flexible bid with this hand. I truely believe that all non-conventional doubles (regardless of the level, and the auction before the double) should be for Takeout until yourside has found a fit. Of course, the higher the level, the more likely your partner will decide to leave it in.

[han]

I agree that Double as take-out is theoretically better. I play this with one regular partner, and I'd have an easy double. With my other regular partner, I play double as penalty in all 2/1 auctions, and I would pass.

[cf_John0]

Pass,Let pd has an option.