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I Use the Two Diamond Bid For.........

Poll: I Use the Two Diamond Bid For......... (49 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you use the 2D bid for?

  1. Natural Weak 2D (Frequency = 2.97%) (22 votes [44.90%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 44.90%

  2. Multi 2D (11 votes [22.45%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 22.45%

  3. Benjamin 2D (Frequency = 0.21%) (1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  4. Ekren 2D (Frequency = 5.53%) (4 votes [8.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.16%

  5. Flannery 2D (Frequency = 1.27%) (3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

  6. Mexican 2D (Frequency = 0.90%) (2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  7. Polish 2D/Wilkosz (Frequency = 2.25%) (3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

  8. Precision 2D (Frequency = 0.66%) (1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  9. Roman 2D (Frequency = 0.20%) (1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  10. Mini-Roman 2D (Frequency = 1.12%) (1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

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#1 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 02:46

This is yet another poll attempting to find out what other players use the 2 bid for.

I have no idea what the frequency of occurrence for Multi is. The frequency will be affected by the version you play.

Of the others listed here, Ekren’s has the highest frequency of occurrence. The natural Weak 2 and Polish 2 are second and third by some distance.

I still play a natural Weak 2. The nuisance factor is greater than many would care to acknowledge. The entire 1-level has been taken away from the opponents. Our continuations are really basic:
Pass (the hand belongs to the opponents)
2/2 (natural, non-forcing)
2NT (natural, inviting 3NT when opener is max [9-11 HCP], or with a suit containing the top 3-honours)
3 (natural, non-forcing, no fit in the suit)
3 (natural, lifting the pre-empt)
3/3 (natural, invitational)
3NT (to play, good fit in the suit)
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#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 03:55

Natural weak 2 here, but my frequency will be MUCH higher than what you quote as we open some hands that would certainly not qualify for anybody else (I have 2 favourites, the apposite one here was where partner opened 2 first up off Kx, xxx, xxxx, xxxx and I had a 27 count with AKQJxx leading to us bidding a slam missed in the other room due to the auction starting 2-2N-3(clubs and minimum), so with my short clubs I could count the cover cards in the majors).
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#3 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 04:08

From the European Team Championships 2012, Open Series.

There were 97 partnerships who played:
- Multi - with some strong option(s) (28 pairs)
- weak-only Multi (26)
- Mexican (7)
- Weak (7)
- Strong (normally 23+, or like a strong 2C, etc) (7)
- Precision (11-15, short in diamonds) (4)
- Wilkosz (3)
- Ekrens (2)
- mini-multi (weak 2H or strong options) (2)
- one offs (the rest)

Update: For Roland's sake I should have mentioned that Flannery was not in the list, but there was a single Reverse Flannery

This post has been edited by paulg: 2012-October-01, 04:25

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#4 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 06:21

Your list of possible meanings for a 2D opening is way too short.
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#5 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 07:42

my favourite use for 2 is generating pointless discussions.
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Posted 2012-September-30, 09:34

Totally agree with Wank, above. There can be no meaningful debate on the virtues of the various choices, except with one's own partner.

The bid is either needed to fill a hole in our style (all the artificial meanings) or it isn't (natural bid). Even the frequency of occurrence is moot, if we need the bid when it does come up and can eliminate the possibility partner has that hand when she doesn't open 2.
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#7 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 09:38

Will you create a thread for each of these possible meanings 32519? You already have one for multi, mexican and jammer (this one inexplicably missed the cut for this poll).
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#8 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 10:26

Playing the KRex 2 opening is a lot of fun, and is never ever boring.

Assign a value of 1 for IMP scoring, and 2 for matchpoint scoring
For vulnerability, assign a value of 1=fav,2=both white,3=both red, 4=unfav

Then simply determine (scoring-1)*16+(vulnerability-1)*4+seat(1-4), and the 2 opening is:
1) 4-10, 4+Ds and other suit
2) 4-10, a five card or longer major
3) 0-7, 4+Ds, no 4cM
4) 11-14, 4-4+ reds
5) 11-15, mini-roman any shortness
6) 11-15, mini-roman not short in Ds
7) 18-19 balanced Mexican
8) 11-14, 6+Ds
9) 5-10, Hs and other
10) Weak two in Hs or strong option
11) Flannery
12) Any GF or 23-24 bal Benjamin
13) Any GF
14) GF with 4+ spades (old school KRex)
15) 5+Ds, strong in points or playing value ACOL
16) Any long suit, exactly 9 tricks
17) 0-6 with 3+Ds
18) 4-10, a five card or longer major, no shortness
19) 0-11, 4-4+ in minors
20) 11-14, 4+Ds and 5+ major
21) 0-11 5 or longer Ds
22) 0-10, 4-4+ majors Ekren
23) 4-10, Ss and other suit
24) 11-15, short Ds Precision
25) 5-10, playable in three suits including Ss
26) 5-10, 5-5+ with at least one major Wilkosz
27) Weak two in either major or strong option Multi
28) Flannery or GF in Ss
29) Weak two 6 or longer in either major Wagner
30) 5-10, weak two, 6 or longer Ds
31) Roman
32) 22-24 balanced

edit: equation fixed
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#9 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 10:37

View Postglen, on 2012-September-30, 10:26, said:

Playing the KRex 2 opening is a lot of fun, and is never ever boring.

Assign a value of 1 for IMP scoring, and 2 for matchpoint scoring
For vulnerability, assign a value of 1=fav,2=both white,3=both red, 4=unfav

Then simply multiply scoring*vulnerablity*seat(1-4), and the 2 opening is:
1) 4-10, 4+Ds and other suit
2) 4-10, a five card or longer major
3) 0-7, 4+Ds, no 4cM
4) 11-14, 4-4+ reds
5) 11-15, mini-roman any shortness
6) 11-15, mini-roman not short in Ds
7) 18-19 balanced Mexican
8) 11-14, 6+Ds
9) 5-10, Hs and other
10) Weak two in Hs or strong option
11) Flannery
12) Any GF or 23-24 bal Benjamin
13) Any GF
14) GF with 4+ spades (old school KRex)
15) 5+Ds, strong in points or playing value ACOL
16) Any long suit, exactly 9 tricks
17) 0-6 with 3+Ds
18) 4-10, a five card or longer major, no shortness
19) 0-11, 4-4+ in minors
20) 11-14, 4+Ds and 5+ major
21) 0-11 5 or longer Ds
22) 0-10, 4-4+ majors Ekren
23) 4-10, Ss and other suit
24) 11-15, short Ds Precision
25) 5-10, playable in three suits including Ss
26) 5-10, 5-5+ with at least one major Wilkosz
27) Weak two in either major or strong option Multi
28) Flannery or GF in Ss
29) Weak two 6 or longer in either major Wagner
30) 5-10, weak two, 6 or longer Ds
31) Roman
32) 22-24 balanced

Basically all prime numbers above 3 are unreachable. You're learning 9 systems which you'll never use. A good thing Flannery is one of them. Nice system!
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#10 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 11:24

View Postgwnn, on 2012-September-30, 09:38, said:

Will you create a thread for each of these possible meanings 32519?


Oh, definetely he will ! And I am afraid he is just warming up.
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#11 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 17:26

View PostFree, on 2012-September-30, 10:37, said:

Basically all prime numbers above 3 are unreachable. You're learning 9 systems which you'll never use. A good thing Flannery is one of them. Nice system!

I made a typo in the equation, and since I was posting from my phone the mobile version of forums would not allow me to edit it
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#12 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 17:56

You might like a passage from Gil's Epic Game, a running monthly story I am writing for my local bridge club newsletter (www.limadbc.blogspot.com)
The hospitality room at night was a buzzing mess of frustratedpeople, for the most part. The room wasdivided into small groups of two or four people, for the most part, discussingthe various post-mortem problems of the day, often with less skill than eventhe actual auction. For, after-the-fact bidding and play might be ideal for thehand under discussion but worse than the actual decisions as a matter ofgeneral application. If you bid everyhand as was needed for the one bad result you received on Tuesday evening, yourresults would be astonishing.

Gil and Kid ended up in a group in a corner, a groupsneaking cigarettes out of sight of the hotel staff, with plastic cups asashtrays. Everyone had some form ofalcohol, technically, if the cheap beer that you find in hospitality room coolers is actually alcohol. Others had cheap whiskey or boxed wine.

The topic that soon arose was the Two Diamond opening.

“You know, I have thought about this for years, and I justcannot decide what to use a Two Diamonds opening for,” started Gil. “If you research this, you will findcountless innovations and methods, and each seems to have its pros and cons.”

“My personal preference,” began one, “is Flannery. It really does solve a lot of problems withthe Forcing 1NT. I especially like usinga flexible form of Flannery, where a six-card heart suit is possible. I also like being able to show five spadeswhen responding to a One Heart opening.”

Another then, “Yes, but Weak Two Diamonds actually does havesome punch, despite the space allowed. That is my preference. I like toadd in my own specialized rebid structure after Two No Trump by Responder. See, Three Clubs shows a minimum, ThreeDiamonds a middlish hand, Three No Trump a hand with good diamonds, and thenmajor calls show three-card suits, which allows for better exploration ofpossible major strains.”

A third, more of a scientist, “I hate Two Diamonds as weak,because it does not really do all that, in my opinion. Obviously, I love Multi,but I do not get to use it that much. When in GCC-land, I suppose Mexican makes as much sense as anything. This allows a much better use of a Two NoTrump jump rebid, which I have developed into a unique means of handling theproblem of the forcing minor rebid.”

Gil took all of this in, and he decided to ask Kid for hisopinion. Kid had sat there quietly,which was strange, as he usually seemed to have an opinion. Gil was mostlyinterested in Kid’s take because this question seemed to tell a lot about theperson. One could easily assess the mindset of the player by simply asking thatquestion – “What is your preferred use for a Two Diamonds opening?” The opinion on this topic is so powerful inunderstanding the person. So, he turnedto Kid.

“Well, of course I think that Mini-Roman is the absolute best use for TwoDiamonds. It is such a greatconvention!” Kid seemed earnest in hisresponse.

This troubled Gil, because that is the response of theidiot. No one plays Mini-Roman unless they have no clue about the game, andthe most vehement advocates of Mini-Roman are the most absurd of players.

This reaction was shared by the rest of the small group, whofound this development too shocking and ridiculous to even remain. The band separated, with various mutteringsof absurdity and looks of scorn. Oneeven parted with the not-quite-whispered comment to Gil, “And you think thisdolt has potential?” Only Gil and Kid remained.

Gil could not understand this strange response, so heasked. “Mini-Roman? Really? I mean, that is the most idiot convention ever played, in my opinion.”

“Of course it is,” responded Kid. “That’s why I play Mini-Roman.”

“What?!?”

“Look,” responded Kid. “No one disputes that Mini-Roman is absurd. In fact, the nonsense of the method is one that causes an immediate andalmost violent reaction by all respectable bridge players. But, every other method is unimportant. Ifyou play Flannery,you apparently have decided that a Weak Two Diamonds can be ditched without toomuch detriment to the system, which is true. If you play a Weak Two Diamonds, you have decided that not playingFlannery is workable, which is also true. The fact that Mexican Two Diamonds even exists proves that nothingis critical. Thus, one could easily play that you just don’t open Two Diamondsat all, right?”

“Well, true.”

“So, assuming this, I decided that it made a lot of sense toplay Mini-Roman and to announce this with great enthusiasm. Ofcourse, I would never actually open Two Diamonds, even if I had that hand. Thatwould be stupid. But, you see what thereaction is when I announce that I play Mini-Roman. Everyone takes me for an idiot, which meansthat they double me more when they should not, overbid and pay for it againstme, do not expect my defense to be as good as it is, and otherwiseunder-estimate my abilities. This pays dividends.”

Gil found this answer intriguing and hysterical. Of course, this Wild Man seemed to not careabout reputation, which is odd among bridge players, but it could be anasset. Especially for Gil. If he played with Kid and won, people wouldthink that Gil was a bridge god, not realizing that the ticket wasbalanced. So, Gil determined to partnerthis Wild Man. Kid, who had seen the talent and had gotten over the roughpersonality, took Gil up on this. So,they decided to play the next day. Thiswas quickly seen as a fool’s errand by the “experts,” but this was preciselywhat Gil had hoped. They were sure to dowell, which meant that Gil was sure to look like a true star, if eccentric inhis partnering of Kid.


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#13 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 18:12

My personal preference is to play it as undiscussed and totally random. One one hand it might be Flannery, on another 23+ any, on a third Wilkosz. on a fourth a Multi and so on. Oh, of course it is either non forcing or forcing.
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#14 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-September-30, 23:51

View Postkenrexford, on 2012-September-30, 06:21, said:

Your list of possible meanings for a 2D opening is way too short.


I am well aware of that. I chose to list the uses for the 2 bid which I believe are amongst the more popular uses for it. If you use it for something else, then vote "Something Else" and then tell us in a post what you use it for.
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#15 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-October-01, 02:18

Would you like the answer for what I use in my preferred (strong club) methods, what I play with my partner (in a simple, natural system), what I have played with previous partners (various), or what I play with pick-up partners (also various)? It is (imho) silly to ask about a single bid in isolation without any reference to the rest of the system being employed.
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#16 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-October-01, 03:01

View Postglen, on 2012-September-30, 17:26, said:

I made a typo in the equation, and since I was posting from my phone the mobile version of forums would not allow me to edit it

it's not fixed.
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#17 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-October-01, 03:13

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-October-01, 02:18, said:

It is (imho) silly to ask about a single bid in isolation without any reference to the rest of the system being employed.

I can only partially agree with you here e.g. Precision, Romex, Benjaminised ACOL have a systemic bid for the 2 bid. However, when I scrutinize the CCs of some top international players, I have seen some who have deviated from the standard systemic bid. Precision is an example I can think of here with some players moving the 4414/3415/4405 hands into the 2 bid in order to free up the 2 bid for something else (usually Multi).

In general, most players tend to use the 2 bid for whatever fits in best with their system. I am curious as to what others are using the bid for, and hence this thread.
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#18 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2012-October-02, 13:10

I like glen's 2 opening but I think it would definitely be superior to flip numbers 11 and 14.

Rik
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#19 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2012-October-02, 13:58

I have heard all of the arguments, and I have played many of the 2 openings - Strong (from my earliest Goren days), Weak, Flannery, original Mexican (circa 1975), Roman (real and weak), Precision, Multi (weak only and with some strong options), and Schenken (I didn't see anyone refer to the Schenken 2 opening). I have had occasional successes with all of them. But my favorite remains the old standard weak 2 opening.

I have particular loathing about the weak Roman and original Precision 2 opening, and I see that Ken Rex shares that opinion.

In one North American pair event, every time I opened a weak 2 I got a good result.

For a short time one summer I was playing in a few events with Richard Colker. Our convention card stated that we were playing Flannery. In actual fact, we were playing a variation of Flannery which I referred to sarcastically as the Colker 2 opening. Our stated range was 11-15, but whenever Richard opened 2 his maximum count was 11, and was often less. I would not called this a concealed partnership agreement, as I always treated his opening bid as 11-15, but I began to see the 10 counts and 9 counts with increasing frequency. And, whenever he did it, we got a good result.
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#20 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-October-02, 14:54

View PostArtK78, on 2012-October-02, 13:58, said:

Our stated range was 11-15, but whenever Richard opened 2 his maximum count was 11, and was often less. I would not called this a concealed partnership agreement, as I always treated his opening bid as 11-15, but I began to see the 10 counts and 9 counts with increasing frequency.

I would call it a concealed partnership agreement. It doesn't matter whether you cater for the possibility that he has a 9-count: if you know that he's likely to do it, you have an agreement which has to be disclosed.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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