[flytoox]

Dealer: North

North:
S: AXX
H: AKX
D: QXX
C: QJXX

South:
S: X
H: QJXX
D: AKX
C: AKTXX

[jtfanclub]

flytoox, on Oct 29 2004, 03:35 PM, said:

Dealer: North

North:
S: AXX
H: AKX
D: QXX
C: QJXX

South:
S: X
H: QJXX
D: AKX
C: AKTXX

I'd say if your bidding starts:

1♣ 2♣ (inverted minor- natural and forcing)
3♥ (Maximum with 4 hearts and 4+ clubs)

You aren't going to have much trouble getting there.

[flytoox]

jtfanclub, on Oct 29 2004, 08:44 PM, said:

flytoox, on Oct 29 2004, 03:35 PM, said:

Dealer: North

North:
S: AXX
H: AKX
D: QXX
C: QJXX

South:
S: X
H: QJXX
D: AKX
C: AKTXX

I'd say if your bidding starts:

1♣ 2♣ (inverted minor- natural and forcing)
3♥ (Maximum with 4 hearts and 4+ clubs)

You aren't going to have much trouble getting there.

Suppose you hear pd open 1N. Can you construct a convincing way to reach 7N with all natural but logical bid?

Many thanks.

Hongjun

[pclayton]

Not sure where science starts and 'natural bidding' stops, but a semi-standard sequence:

1♣ - 2♣
3♠ - 4♥
4N - 4♠
5N - 6♥
7♣.

Posters on this site will have a cheaper key card ask than 4N for ♣'s, and get to 7 more comfortably, but I think the above-sequence could be used by a pair playing a modicum of tools.

No matter who does the asking, I can see problems getting to 7N, since its about impossible to identify the red queen in the other hand.

(Edited)

If North opens the bidding with 1N, I can see a transfer to clubs, followed by South showing the heart suit and few cue bids, and one taking control.

[flytoox]

pclayton, on Oct 29 2004, 08:49 PM, said:

(Edited)

If North opens the bidding with 1N, I can see a transfer to clubs, followed by South showing the heart suit and few cue bids, and one taking control.

Would not you start with stayman then bid 3c?

Or

Do you play minor xfer then major suit bid as natural not short?

Thanks.

[jtfanclub]

flytoox, on Oct 29 2004, 03:48 PM, said:

[Suppose you hear pd open 1N. Can you construct a convincing way to reach 7N with all natural but logical bid?

Maybe it can be constructed, but I'm pretty sure in real life we'd end up at 6NT.

[Fluffy]

inverted minors is not natural bidding to me, this would be my auction:

1♣-1♦
1♥-1♠*
3♦-4♣
4♦-4NT
5♣-5NT
6♦-7♣

[flytoox]

Fluffy, on Oct 29 2004, 09:15 PM, said:

inverted minors is not natural bidding to me, this would be my auction:

1♣-1♦
1♥-1♠*
3♦-4♣
4♦-4NT
5♣-5NT
6♦-7♣

Inverted minor is fine, but what if pd opens 1N?

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Oct 29 2004, 04:35 PM, said:

Dealer: North

North:
S: AXX
H: AKX
D: QXX
C: QJXX

South:
S: X
H: QJXX
D: AKX
C: AKTXX

I think the only "natural" opening bid with north in the context of 2/1 or SAYC (where this hand is posted), is an opening bid of 1NT.

South is clearly thinking slam after a 1NT opening bid, and I see no reason not to bid naturally, show the ♣ suit with 2♠ (transfer) and then do whatever you do over openers rebid. If you show "short suits", show short spades (most typical). IF this was matchpoints, you would have start wtih stayman perhaps... but here I would go....

!N - 2S
2N - 3S <<--- now no wasted values in spades, grand slam is not out of the question, but the rest is up to the partnership... but I would continue with a 4♥ cue bid.. (or cute bid.. as I almost typed).

Ben

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Oct 29 2004, 09:22 PM, said:

flytoox, on Oct 29 2004, 04:35 PM, said:

Dealer: North

North:
S: AXX
H: AKX
D: QXX
C: QJXX

South:
S: X
H: QJXX
D: AKX
C: AKTXX

I think the only "natural" opening bid with north in the context of 2/1 or SAYC (where this hand is posted), is an opening bid of 1NT.

South is clearly thinking slam after a 1NT opening bid, and I see no reason not to bid naturally, show the ♣ suit with 2♠ (transfer) and then do whatever you do over openers rebid. If you show "short suits", show short spades (most typical). IF this was matchpoints, you would have start wtih stayman perhaps... but here I would go....

!N - 2S
2N - 3S <<--- now no wasted values in spades, grand slam is not out of the question, but the rest is up to the partnership... but I would continue with a 4♥ cue bid.. (or cute bid.. as I almost typed).

Ben

Ben, dont you bid stayman first, say

1n--2c
2d--3c?

[luke warm]

flytoox, on Oct 29 2004, 10:35 PM, said:

Dealer: North

North:
S: AXX
H: AKX
D: QXX
C: QJXX

South:
S: X
H: QJXX
D: AKX
C: AKTXX

hey fly, what do you mean by 'natural'? no relays, etc? if this is opened as if 12-15 with us, then it goes

1nt : 2d - game force
2nt : 3c - any 4333 : asking
3nt : 4c - 3334 : cab
4s : 4nt - 5 controls : scanning (order is CSHD)
5c : 5d - no top club : scanning
6c : 6d - top spade, top heart, A, K, or Q of diamonds : scanning
6s : 7nt - club Q no other top spade, placing

responder knows the controls are the ♠A and ♥A & K, and he knows there are 9 clubs to the A, K, Q and that opener has the ♦Q... he can count 13 tricks

[the hog]

Dealer: North

North:
S: AXX
H: AKX
D: QXX
C: QJXX

South:
S: X
H: QJXX
D: AKX
C: AKTXX


1N 3S 3S = s/t
4C 4D 4C agrees C, 4D = cue
4H 4N 4H cue, 4N = kcb
5S 6D 5S = 2 with, 6D = D ask - willing to play 6H or 6N
6S 7C Q of D

[pclayton]

flytoox, on Oct 29 2004, 12:54 PM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 29 2004, 08:49 PM, said:

(Edited)

If North opens the bidding with 1N, I can see a transfer to clubs, followed by South showing the heart suit and few cue bids, and one taking control.

Would not you start with stayman then bid 3c?

Or

Do you play minor xfer then major suit bid as natural not short?

Thanks.

I play "Goldman" with a few partners. After 1N - 2♠ / 2N (showing ♣'s / ♦'s), a subsequent 3 of a major shows slam interest and the OTHER major. This sets up an easy sequence usually.

Alternately, you can play 3 of the major as natural (well, you wanted natural right? ) or as shortness-showing after the transfer to the minor.

[whereagles]

Natural to me would be

1NT 2C
2D 3C
3H 4C
4S 4NT
5S...

and now it kinda depends on how lucky you feel. Mind you this was with minimal gadgetry, apart from stayman and blackwood

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Oct 29 2004, 05:37 PM, said:

inquiry, on Oct 29 2004, 09:22 PM, said:

flytoox, on Oct 29 2004, 04:35 PM, said:

Dealer: North

North:
S: AXX
H: AKX
D: QXX
C: QJXX

South:
S: X
H: QJXX
D: AKX
C: AKTXX

I think the only "natural" opening bid with north in the context of 2/1 or SAYC (where this hand is posted), is an opening bid of 1NT.

South is clearly thinking slam after a 1NT opening bid, and I see no reason not to bid naturally, show the ♣ suit with 2♠ (transfer) and then do whatever you do over openers rebid. If you show "short suits", show short spades (most typical). IF this was matchpoints, you would have start wtih stayman perhaps... but here I would go....

!N - 2S
2N - 3S <<--- now no wasted values in spades, grand slam is not out of the question, but the rest is up to the partnership... but I would continue with a 4♥ cue bid.. (or cute bid.. as I almost typed).

Ben

Ben, dont you bid stayman first, say

1n--2c
2d--3c?

I am bidding slam... i like something called jumping jacoby, where 1NT-2H and 1NT-2S are to play, and 1NT-2NT up are all transfers, weak or forcing... so here you could bid 2NT, then bid 3H over 3♣ to show 5+♣ 4+♥ and slam interest. But no one plays that...

I don't mind starting 2♣, then rebidding forcing 3♣, but with such a slam going hand, I find show the minor and then the major short suit (assuming you play that) quite effective. You miss some 4-4 major contracts from time to time, but it not a foregone conclusion after showing clubs and then spade shortness, that you can't get back into hearts.

At matchpoints, where a 6♣ contract could be huge loser compared to a potential 6♥ contract, 2♣ would have more in favor of it.

Ben

[han]

I realize that the following auction is not natural, but this is how I would bid it:

1NT (15-17) -3H (4 hearts, stiff spade, gameforcing)
3S (nothing wasted) - 4C (natural)
4S (ace, setting clubs as trumps) - 4NT (keycards in clubs, counting the heart king)
5D (0 or 3 keys) - 5H (asking for the club queen)
5NT (got it, but no side king) - 6D (do you have the diamond queen?)
7C (I do!) - 7NT (can count to 13)

Playing natural (are stayman, transfers and blackwood natural?) I wouldn't find the grand.

[Flame]

1NT - 2♣
2♦ -3♣
3♥ -3♠
3NT/4♣ -4♦
4♥ -4NT
5♠ - 7♣/6♦
2c stayman
3c showing 5 clubs 4M and slam seeking
3H cue bid showing club fit
3sp cue
3NT/4C cue or whatever 3nt mean here
4D - cue
4H -cue showing second honor in the suit
4NT aces
5sp - 2 aces with the Q of club
7club - to play or 6D if this asks about Q of diamond, if partner has the Q we can bid 7NT.

[badderzboy]

sorry missed the SAYC bit..

[EricK]

I don't know any "natural" way to find out about Queens. So I think it is impossible to be certain of 13 tricks in NT via a "natural" auction.

On the other hand, I have never seen any pair use entirely natural methods opposite 1NT, and I doubt you do it either!

Eric

[Fluffy]

ooops, sorry missed the dealer.

Then I think I would bid it as Flame suggested.