[jtfanclub]

Fluffy, on Nov 11 2004, 09:10 AM, said:

2♥, it will often be a 3-3, but in doesn´t have to be a bad contract anyway.

That's a very frightening statement to me. Possibly true, but frightening nonetheless.

I had a partner who, in a very similar situation (and who doesn't read this forum), bid 2♥ rather than X in the balancing seat with 4 hearts and about 10 HCP. I had two of them, and we made it for a good board. For the rest of my days playing with him, I will know what a double means in that balancing seat- a full opener without the shape to X (which makes this an easy pass). And I'll know what 2♥ would mean as well...Double shape without double points. I didn't ask him to do this, we hadn't discussed it, he just made the bid that he knew wouldn't put me into a position like the one given.

If this very common situation is likely to put you in a 3-3 fit, maybe it's time to rethink your balancing calls.

[Chamaco]

2H.
Given the bidding pard could be:

1) strong but off shape for a 1st round double (e.g. holding one of opps suit).
But our holding strongly suggests against this hypothesis: it's WE who hold opps suit, so, unless opps are in a terible misfit, pard will be short.

2) If pard is SHORT in opps suit, he cannot be strong, otherwise he would have made a 1st round t/o double.
So he is simply protecting in the balancing seat.


For the above reasons I bid 2H and this will be my last bid, regardless of what opps and pard will bid.


Sure, it may happen that it is indeed CASE 1: a terrible misfit hand (and in this case we should leave the double in), but this hypothesis is against odds, and bridge is a game of odds, isn't it ?

[joker_gib]

2♥

[inquiry]

Sufficient votes are in, now for the rest of the story....

Your partner's hand was...

---

My partner passed the reopening double. explaining "but they where bidding my suits, what could I do?"

Obviously, 2S was the winning call, flytoox, free, jlall, gerben47, and it looks like whereagles got it right in my opinion, but I would have gladly accepted a 2H call as well... anything but pass.

2S was top matchpoint spot for you folowed by 3S. Your opponents have a cake walk to 8 tricks in diamonds (6D, 1S, 1C), and can always set up a long heart (opener had HEART QJxx). They get the same 8 tricks in notrump. As for us, with "EXPERT" defensive play that matched our bidding, we allowed then two heart tricks (partner start HAK) so they made two doubled overtricks for an absolute zero.

I think a few of the 2S bidders have the theory of why 2S correct, I suspect Justin missed that it was matchpoint in the condition of contest, as he knows partscores are just as important as slams at matchpoints. 2H is a "safety bid" as partner must be expecting you might bid that... .but 2S is in my opinion the red blooded call. Even if partner has only 3S and 4H, you will be ruffing diamonds in the short trump hand.. which has to be better for you in the long run, than ruffing diamonds in the hand with four hearts.

Ben

[junyi_zhu]

inquiry, on Nov 12 2004, 01:35 PM, said:

Sufficient votes are in, now for the rest of the story....

Your partner's hand was...

---

My partner passed the reopening double. explaining "but they where bidding my suits, what could I do?"

Obviously, 2S was the winning call, flytoox, free, jlall, gerben47, and it looks like whereagles got it right in my opinion, but I would have gladly accepted a 2H call as well... anything but pass.

2S was top matchpoint spot for you folowed by 3S. Your opponents have a cake walk to 8 tricks in diamonds (6D, 1S, 1C), and can always set up a long heart (opener had HEART QJxx). They get the same 8 tricks in notrump. As for us, with "EXPERT" defensive play that matched our bidding, we allowed then two heart tricks (partner start HAK) so they made two doubled overtricks for an absolute zero.

I think a few of the 2S bidders have the theory of why 2S correct, I suspect Justin missed that it was matchpoint in the condition of contest, as he knows partscores are just as important as slams at matchpoints. 2H is a "safety bid" as partner must be expecting you might bid that... .but 2S is in my opinion the red blood call. Even if partner has only 3S and 4H, you will be ruffing diamonds in the short trump hand.. which has to be better for you in the long run, than ruffing diamonds in the hand with four hearts.

Ben

I also voted 2S, the better bid in theory.
This take out of 2D in nature is a take out in three suits.
A most common holding is something like this:
SAQxx HKxxx Dx CJxxx. Without spades, you can just bid 2H over 2D
and hope to survive there. So gain of the double is that it shows your spades
which can be very important no matter in MP or IMP.
However, for this hand, it's still a tough decision, because your spades
were quite small. If partner doubles with three spades, 2S might not play very well.
But that's less likely if opps holds 8 diamonds, because with 9 cards in C and H, about 10 HCP, partner may act earlier. I don't mind a double with Axx KJxx x QTxxx over 1D p 1S. Also, I hope I can pass 2D with Axx Kxxx xx Qxxx, although I know many would bid.

[jtfanclub]

inquiry, on Nov 12 2004, 08:35 AM, said:

Obviously, 2S was the winning call, flytoox, free, jlall, gerben47, and it looks like whereagles got it right in my opinion, but I would have gladly accepted a 2H call as well... anything but pass.

Junyi is correct...and therefore, 2♥ cannot be the right call.

Note that if 2♠ by your partner after the X is a cue bid, or might be a cue bid, then you have no business doubling with your hand. You're putting your partner in an impossible position. If you double the first time, your partner can still bid 2♣ to escape to a 4-3, but now it's too late.

[the hog]

"Your opponents have a cake walk to 8 tricks in diamonds"

Surprise surprise! Its intersting how posters attempt to justify their poor bids after the fact.

[jtfanclub]

The_Hog, on Nov 12 2004, 04:34 PM, said:

"Your opponents have a cake walk to 8 tricks in diamonds"

Surprise surprise! Its intersting how posters attempt to justify their poor bids after the fact.

The poor bid being 2♥.

Quote

2S was top matchpoint spot for you folowed by 3S. Your opponents have a cake walk to 8 tricks in diamonds (6D, 1S, 1C), and can always set up a long heart (opener had HEART QJxx).

Actually, they can't...normal way to play it is low to the QJxx twice, since the odds of the K or A being to your right are a lot higher than both AK being in the short hand.

So what it comes down to is the location of the K of clubs.

[Fluffy]

Why didn´t you double previous round Ben?

[inquiry]

Fluffy, on Nov 13 2004, 07:32 AM, said:

Why didn´t you double previous round Ben?

My sandwich doubles are a little better. If you reverse my heart and spade holding, however, I would double. The weakness of the hearts is the reason for a little conservatism. And, this is important. My parnter with 7 hcp, knows I have around 11 hcp (they surley will not have more than 23 or so points here), and short diamonds, yet I didn't bid earlier. With a hand with this points in the off suits I would most have likely doubled earlier. I think this is a big reason the people bidding spades do so.

Note if I double earlier, we will not be able to find spades, as this implication is missing... so by balancing we get to hearts, sort of the same way we do if I double over 2D and partner draws the "wrong" inference.

Ben

[flytoox]

Fluffy, on Nov 13 2004, 11:32 AM, said:

Why didn´t you double previous round Ben?

Dbl in the previous round is very dangerous. Both LHO and RHO could have extra strength. After 2D, dbl is relatively safe.

[pclayton]

I've given this matter thought for a few extra days. Certainly pard MIGHT have spade support, but I think everyone is reading a little too much into pard's first pass. Wouldn't pard make a balance on hands like:

Axx
Qxxx
xx
KJxx?

Ax
Qxxx
xx
Axxxx?

I just don't buy into this 'pard doesn't have 4 hearts, else he'd bid them'. Further, Pard shouldn't come into these direct sandwich auctions (forcing to the 2 level) on a wing and a prayer, so there are many hand types and strengths pard can have.

We know that LHO has AT least 4 spades. If LHO has only 4 spades, he doesn't have 4 hearts. If RHO had a rebid problem with 4 hearts; RHO probably would have redoubled. Therefore, I think its reasonable for hearts to be 3-3.

With my weak hand, and given that pard couldn't make a call over 1♠ leads me to believe that we don't have the balance of power. I want to get to a quiet partial, even if it means a 4-3 fit without getting smacked. 2♠ is all too easy to get hit with the known stack, and it may be a total joke.

[flytoox]

pclayton, on Nov 15 2004, 05:16 AM, said:

I've given this matter thought for a few extra days. Certainly pard MIGHT have spade support, but I think everyone is reading a little too much into pard's first pass. Wouldn't pard make a balance on hands like:

Axx
Qxxx
xx
KJxx?

Ax
Qxxx
xx
Axxxx?

Balance with this kind hand is very dangerous. I would pass with it. Yes pd has 4 hearts most of the time, the problem is that this 4-3 fit wont play well.