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avoidable mistakes.. signaling discussion continued

#1 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 10:28

Because of speed of loading post with lots of bridgebase handviewer hands, I will post continuation hands in new threads. To see the first thread in this series, see: First thread in this series

The last post laid out a bunch of different group of defensive agreements you could have (none of which were complete). We will continue the 7NT theme on real hands people screwed up, and compare a few of the methods and how they could help avoid the mistakes. Once again this hand will be double dummy, this is the last one that is (this is a very easy hand to defend).

You can click the next button repeatedly to see how the defense screwed this on up.

The club queen might not be your choice, but that is what was played at the table.

Clear signaling can avoid mistakes like this one. Poor EAST has a great hand, but has to decide which of three suits to give up. Most of us would have given up clubs, but that let's ignore that obvious solution.

Trick one, east might want to send a positive attitude signal. The stanard signals will play a large club to signal they like clubs, udca players would signal a positive attitude signal by playing a low club. East players who think they will have to be responsible for both diamonds and hearts, might deny values in clubs to force partner to hold onto his supposed J.

On the 2nd spade, east would want to signal diamond value. In standard, it would be a high diamond discard, in udca, a low diamond discard. The lavinthal discard people would discard a low club and plan on reinforcing the signal with low-higher discards later as well. Roman signal people will have a problem. They don't have an odd diamond to discard, can't really afford a heart yet (no signal from partner showing a surprise heart value) so the best they can do is perhaps the 6.

West in the meanwhile will want to signal his heart value. Standard players by discarding a high heart on the third spade, udca a low heart, and roman player the heart 5.

After west shows heart value and of course the known club jack, east has an easy time holding on to diamond. On the hand, east should give count in diamonds (udca sequence 2-7, standard 7-2), and throw those early (giving s/p well before this, so this will be count).

In the alternative method, east plays spade jack (to show heart value). Normally, honors are not used for this signal, but with the dummy's spades, the jack is clearly just a "big spot card." West might think this was a singleton spade, but when east plays a low spade on the next round, it confirms the heart signal. West knows that the 2nd spade by east was not a substitute count in clubs -- because he can see it was the 13th spade, but if west could have another spade, east would have wait and see if west had a third spade. Meanwhile east spade at trick two is not a signal, it was also forced. However, on trick 3, east freely discards a low as s/p showing a diamond value (this will count as "first suit" led by declarer since there was no free will on the first round of spades). On the third spade, west discards either a high diamond or high club to show an "odd" original club count. Meanwhile, west, on the third round of spades will get to give a subsitute count in clubs. A low heart, a low club, or a low diamond will all show an original even count in clubs.

Thus, all the methods will allow West to give a clear heart signal which if east believes it, will avoid the horrible mistake made at the table above. Review of the primary signal by west that solves this hand (and this signal comes very early to be clear):


Standard – big heart discard (the six)
UDCA - low heart discard (the 2)
Lavinthal type discard with diamond 7
Roman with heart 3 or 5.
Alternative gets it early with J (the high card always promises value, a low card does not).




Future hands will be single dummy, with questions about how you would play with your carding agreement, and with some carding by your partner either given, or you are asked what you expect his carding would be with different hands.
--Ben--

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Posted 2012-February-14, 10:46

Try this one using your favorite methods.

Partner starts a club, and dummy wins and continues two more rounds of clubs. NOT much happens at trick one, although east would be happier playing roman, UDCA or standard. The reason being the only suit he can afford to discard on the opening lead is diamonds. In standard, he would play a high diamond (8) showing value there, followed at trick two with a count card in diamonds (high 5 remaining count even). UDCA would reverse the carding, throwing low diamond (2) showing value, then a high card (8) showing odd original count. Same thing in roman methods, he would discard the odd five of diamonds to show diamond values then give original udca count in diamonds with the 8.

Others, playing lavinthal discards, will have to discard an unhappy diamond. A high diamond showing spades makes some sense but no diamond discard is perfect for these players, but you have to discard one or them at trick one, and a 2nd diamond at trick two.

Regardless of your methods, you know you can safely discard two diamonds (south has one ace and one king). What do you discard on the 3rd club? Are you in a pure guess position, or does your partner have any signaling options in your methods that can help, and if he does, would he think to use them?


This post has been edited by inquiry: 2012-February-14, 19:19
Reason for edit: clarified meaning of 5D as one king

--Ben--

#3 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 11:34

Why can't I pitch a spade on the opening lead or later? If declarer has J fourth or better, he has his tricks. Am I worried about something like 9 fourth?
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Posted 2012-February-14, 11:47

View PostAntrax, on 2012-February-14, 11:34, said:

Why can't I pitch a spade on the opening lead or later? If declarer has J fourth or better, he has his tricks. Am I worried about something like 9 fourth?


You can pitch a spade anytime you want. But declarer could have, for instance xxxx or xxxxx of spades. You know to "stop" diamonds you only need 3 of them. But there is an important card lurking in your partners hand (besides perhaps the necessary J which would make a spade discard potentially dangerous). What cards might it be? Can your partner help you figure out which of these he has? This is not an easy hand, it requires sound partnership agreements.
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#5 User is offline   BunnyGo 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 12:54

Tough one Inquiry. Thanks for the great idea for a new topic.

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Posted 2012-February-14, 13:33

Does 5 mean "one King"?

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#7 User is offline   flametree 

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Posted 2012-February-14, 15:43

Phil beat me to it...

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Posted 2012-February-14, 19:21

View PostPhil, on 2012-February-14, 13:33, said:

Does 5 mean "one King"?

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Yes, my mistake, five diamonds meant one king, it was properly alerted at the table, as 1 K, when spelling it out, some reason I wrote 1 key card instead of the actual meaning of one king.
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#9 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-February-15, 04:22

Great threads so far Ben, and kuddos to Phil for not being distracted by all the comments about signalling.

To Bunny, if partner's second club is suit preference, shouldn't it tell you whether partner has the heart king or the diamond king? So if partner plays a high club, it means he has hearts locked up, not clubs.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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Posted 2012-February-15, 05:46

View Posthan, on 2012-February-15, 04:22, said:

Great threads so far Ben, and kuddos to Phil for not being distracted by all the comments about signalling.

To Bunny, if partner's second club is suit preference, shouldn't it tell you whether partner has the heart king or the diamond king? So if partner plays a high club, it means he has hearts locked up, not clubs.


That's probably a good point, Han. Of course the direct count (as Phil pointed out) is even better.
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Posted 2012-February-15, 07:10

View PostBunnyGo, on 2012-February-15, 05:46, said:

Of course the direct count (as Phil pointed out) is even better.


It often is.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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Posted 2012-February-15, 17:36

i though these two hands had a similiar look to them, they are both easy, and either require no cooperation, or a small amount of cooperation for a partner (you) if you are partially asleep.

On the first hand, you can throw clubs till the cows come home while waiting for a signal from partner (you can stiff your K or even discard it). In fact, assuming your partner would not have led the Q without the jack, you can come down to Kx and qjx and rest assured you will set the contract. So no signal is really needed at all, although a heart signal would help in case your partner tried a sneaky club queen without the jack. So the first hand was very modest one requiring either no cooperation, or a very little cooperation, just some way to signal heart values.

The 2nd hand is falls in the same boat, as phil correctly noted, if south's king is the heart king, he has 13 tricks (all the cards in dummy are already good, except the three hearts. If south has the ak of hearts, that takes care of the two little hearts and the heart queen is then a winner. For counters, that is 3, 3, 1 and 6. So it is always safe to abandon hearts here. That is just play bridge, there can never be a need to hold onto four hearts to the jack. Should you fall asleep, and not realize that partner has to have the heart king or the hand is over, partner could play to wake you up, by a s/p signal on the 2nd round of clubs, but only if you have some agreement that such a play is made in this situation.

The signaling gets much harder (and necessary) as we move forward.
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