BBO Discussion Forums: Avoidable defensive mistakes - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Avoidable defensive mistakes a guide to signaling (the 7NT thread)

#1 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-13, 22:25

There are a lot of different type of mistakes that everyone makes on defense. I make a lot more mistakes than I should, considering how much experience and effort I have put into this game over decades of study. As part of my bbo responsibilities, I have examined 1000's of hands played on BBO and witnessed a lot of incredible (and at the other end of the spectrum some extremely subtle) blunders. In the past, I have presented beginner/intermediate level BBO play mistakes in a series of one hand per post problems, such at the Defensive Play series, and the much older "good idea" series on slam plays. It occurred to me that perhaps a more consistent approach to review common avoidable errors -- and thematic help in how to avoid them -- would be more useful than random hands illustrating mistakes.

So I decided to try an approach I've had in mind for a while. I will start off with defense against defeatable 7NT contracts, and not kinds where opening leader has to cash an ace or lead to his partner's ace to set the contract. It turns out, not much can go wrong when you are defending 7NT, either declarer has 13 tricks, or he doesn't, simple right? Well, not so much. There are plenty of hands where declarer has 12 tricks (or less) but the defenders have to play their cards correctly -- often in double dummy fashion -- to defeat him.

One large group that I am going to ignore is where opening leader has to find the right (killing) lead at trick one: either you make the killing lead or you don't (lead directing and conventional doubles and careful auction analysis might help with those, btw). The following hand is a typical example of this group that will not be examined, where a club lead at trick one kills the entry needed to run the heart suit (as declarer can not afford to overtake one of his heart honors due to the 4-1 split).




A club opening lead, and only a club, will defeat this contract. This is not the kind of hand I will be discussing in this thread.

Also, note this thread is not about bidding, the as you can see, other contracts would have been more successful (if you would have lead a club).


So without concern to the opening lead, and with an understanding that each 7NT discussed can go down, where can the defender mistakes come from?

They can be classified into just two groups of errors. The most common by far is failure to keep the setting trick (defenders discarding winners to keep losers). For lack of a better term, let's call these the discard winners error... where defenders discard the winning cards for their side (if there is a better name, we can change this). We can further divide the winner discard category into subclasses based upon degree of difficulty necessary to know how to avoid discarding the winner. The easiest hands to avoid the discard error is where you, as a defender has full information based upon the cards declarer is known to hold to make the right play without any help (logical signaling) from partner. These hands will also not be the studied in this thread other than to show a few illustrative examples in the next post.

Besides the winner discard error (which typically occurs late during the play, but not necessarily), there is the trick one error. By trick one error, I am not discussing making the wrong lead, but rather the third hand playing the wrong card to trick one. This is what Eric Rodwell says is making a futile play. Usually this is the third hand playing high when that play has no chance of being "right." We have already seen examples of when a futile third hand high is wrong in the Defensive Play series, and we will examine more examples in this series (and not just this, the 7NT). In addition to trick one errors, we can add similar mistakes in midhand play were you either cover an honor when you shouldn't or don't cover one when you should (say in response to a chinese finesse or to screw up declarer's entry conditions).

Future threads will expand to defending contracts other than 7NT, were these kinds of errors still exist, but other, more complex errors can creep in (wrong return when you get in, allowing yourself to be endplayed, ducking a trick to gain a greater advantage, etc) that are not a concern when defending 7NT.

NEXT POST in this thread will be on the simplest forms of discard winners errors that everyone should easily avoid. After that post giving examples of the basic types of errors that are easily avoided, we will then begin examinations how different carding agreements can help you avoid the discard winner error.
--Ben--

#2 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-13, 22:38

The discard winner mistake: When declarer has only 12 tricks in a 7NT contract, he can cash a lot of winners (well 12 of them) and you – as defender, will almost certainly have to find some discards. If declarer is going to make the 13th trick, he is going to rely on you (or your partner) to discard a winner. He maybe able to generate a 13th trick legitimately via a squeeze, or rely on your side to make a mistake.

I will divide the ways to avoid these errors into three classes.

Class I: the simplest forms will require no assistance from your partner to get it correct. The absolute worse example is to throw a "winner" in order to hold onto the 13th and last remaining card in some other suit, and its closely related ending where you have an absolute count on a given suit, such that you know you must keep the "winner" in that suit to prevent a winner in declarer's hand. Getting either of these Class I problems wrong marks you as a novice/beginner, and other than this single post, will not be examined further in this thread. Here is a typical example of keeping the 13th card in a suit.



You can follow the play with the NEXT button. These are sadly, all too familiar examples of poor play.

The opening lead was unfortunate, and perhaps gives us a huge clue to south's bridge ability (always leads 4th best from longest and strongest even with a sequence?). But after trick five, where north throws a heart (and nine hearts had been played, with only the king still outstanding), south knows he can throw all his hearts away. At trick 8, east even cashes the K so there are no more outstanding hearts. However, south comes down after trick 11 with the stiff diamond king and he keeps the hearts jack. That clearly marks him as a novice/beginner, right?


A corresponding simple discard winner error is when you know the absolute count in a suit. This is another form of the "simplest" Class I error where you know a card that must be in declarer's hand and you have to keep a card to keep that from being a winner. The card can be based upon pure count like the next example, or a marked lower honor card for which you have a higher card you must hold onto. Missing either one of these also marks you as a beginner. Let's look at an example of each of these errors.


On this hand, east found out after declarer took 3 round of spades that south has two more spades. Despite this, east throws away his Jack of spades. To keep diamond QJ doubleton in the ending. That can't be right! He has to keep the J to keep from allowing the south's spade to become a winner. Rate east's skill level. Novice/beginner, right?




Declarer tried to muddy the water with the Q discard, but would partner lead the9 from JT9X? The answer is no, so north know that declarer still has a diamond honor (ten at least) and needs to hold tight to his K. All he could remember during the hand is that EAST threw away the Q.

There are other things on this hand, south could have co-operated with north in maximizing their defense (and maybe he did) by making it clear that he, south, would hold onto the guard in the club suit. We will discuss cooperation in the later in this thread.


I think we can admit, among ourselves, that not one of our regular forum readers would make this level of mistakes -- or at least consitently. So let's not dwell on the Class I errors. Instead we will turn to Class II and Class III type discard winner errors.

In class II errors you either fail to give defensive signals or pay attention to your partner's defensive signals (or he fails to give you signals) that would assist your side in avoiding the discard winner error. This means there must be cooperation between partners to avoid this error reliably. Things partners will need to know are count in various suits, and location of "guards" in their partner's hand. This is where cooperation through the use of signalling and informative discards are key. This means you will need to know and use three kinds of signals (count, attitude and suit preference (or S/P) were S/P shows you have a guard or where you lack a guard). This will be the major theme of this thread (and will build upon defensive carding agreements to be used in other threads in this series looking at other type of mistakes).

Class III discard errors and the final, and most difficult, of the discard winner error and maybe beyond intermediate level to follow. These are where partners have to have a greater degree of cooperation to prevent exposing partner to a finesse or even more difficult to pending squeeze endings. That is, you maybe be forced to consider what to keep in your hand to prevent exposing partners guards to a finesse or a squeeze(or both of you to a double squeeze). Despite being beyond, perhaps, intermediate level considerations, these type of hands will appear as well.

But first, we will examine the 3rd hand errors at trick one in the next post.
--Ben--

#3 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-13, 23:17

In 7NT, if the contract is not "cold" and can be defeated, the defensive mistakes that allow it to make general occur in two ways. The first is the defenders discard their winners, the simplist form (class I) of those mistakes were shown in the last post.

The 2nd is what I will call a trick 1 error by the 3rd hand, but really, this error can occur at anytime on the hand. It involves a careless playing of highest card at a bad time (3rd hand high most common) or a careless refusal to cover an honor when you should. A couple of examples will illustrate the point.


Once again, you can follow the play by pressing the next button repeatedly.

This hand is a good example of what I mean by a trick one error. Here partner leads a heart and dummy plays low. When this hand was played, several south players popped up with the king, giving declarer his 13th trick indirectly on a simple squeeze on north (in the ending, north can not keep 4 and the J.)

Declarer could make it much harder for south to play a low heart if he put up the 10 at trick one, but it would still be still be right to duck the heart ten as well.




This hand is a little tougher than the first example. Partner could have underlead the K, where on the first hand he would never have underlead the Ace against 7NT (and if he had the A on that one, he would have doubled). But could declarer missing the spade king (and queen) really afford to duck, and would partner risk a led away from the KQ. The way to defeat this hand is to duck trick one and insert the 9.

In his book, "The Rodwell Files", Eric Rodwell quotes Richard Pavlieck rule, "If your honor is one step higher than one in dummy, finesse with eight or better, if it is two steps higher finesse if you have the nine. Otherwise play your higher honor." Of course, don't follow any bridge rules blindly, but at least that is a useful guideline to consider before you play any card.
Speaking of not following any bridge rule blindly, these last two hands show clear examples of why you shouldn't follow the bridge rule of "third hand high" blindly.

After, perhaps the longest introduction to a thread topic ever (3 long rambling post, sorry), the remaining post will deal with carding agreements and how they help you avoid the winner discard error. The next post will define briefly five routine defensive agreement via which a partnerships can legally share information, and compared on the first more difficult example where people misdefended 7NT.

As we compare compare different "popular" agreements, to help communicate which cards to keep and which are safe to discard, and common problem that occur in these signaling methods, please understand there are many nuances to even these agreements, and other agreements that I will not introduced. Others are encourage to indicate how their carding would be different on the various hands. After introducing the different carding agreement and comparing all three in one hand, most subsequent problem hands will then be presented using only one or two of the methods, or will be left for you to describe your planned carding, and how you expect partner to signal the different potential hands he could hold using your own carding agreement.

This post has been edited by inquiry: 2012-February-14, 00:51
Reason for edit: change 4d to 4c (typo noted by anthrax)

--Ben--

#4 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-13, 23:50

Now that we have gotten the easiest of the discard winner errors out of the way, it is time to look at some hands where the correct cards to keep are not so clear. On these hands (many hands to follow either in this thread or in new threads on this same topic) you will need cooperation from your partner (and you will have cooperate with him) in order to set the grand slams.

There are rumors that some people communicate while online via phone, skype, aol messenger or sitting right next to each other, but that is not the kind of communication we are talking about. You will need to provide signals via the cards you play (and NOT the tempo at which you play them) that convey the required information. There are many, many carding agreements you could pursue. As we start off, we will consider six different possible agreements on this first hand. Then we will drop to using just one or two signaling agreement per post -- we can discuss, however, any of these six or your own personal favorites. I am very fond of "substitute count" and other offsuit signals, so some of those will creep in, perhaps too much.

The choices are for count are: standard (high with even, low with odd), udca (low with even, high with odd). A third possibility, scanian signals (a mixture of standard and udca) will not be covered in this thread, but we might touch on if anyone is interested in later defensive threads.

The choice for suit preferences when following suit will always be high for higher suit, low for lower suit. We will acknowledge that upside down suit preference exist, as does other things, but lets keep this part simple when following suit (also in later threads when returning suits but obviously returning suits is not a concern against 7NT).

Suit preference when discarding comes in several options: standard, udca, Lavinthal, revolving Lavinthal, roman. Others exist but that is enough. I will not be dicussing smith echo (or foster echo) but anyone who wants to discuss those as signaling options on any of the hands are free to do so. Also for simplicity, we will not use revolving lavinthal.

These discard situations, when playing standard, a high discard suggest values in the suit discarded, a low discard implies that suit is not guarded. REVERSE the meaning of those discards if you are playing udca discards. In roman discards, odd cards are used to encourage (show value) in that suit, and even cards to discourage (no value in the discarded suit in this case). In Roman, the discouraging cards also carry a suit-preference message, so if the first play is the deuce it will tend to suggest value in a lower ranking suit, while the eight would express interest in a higher ranking suit.

It is also important to give count in suits. One option is to give count on first round of each suit declarer plays (if not trying to win the trick), followed by s/p information given in the same suit. Sometimes, vital information needs to be given in another suit. It is possible to reverse the order of carding, so that first card played in a suit declarer plays is s/p or even count in some other suit (as we will see some examples of that below).

The signal priority to trick one will be attitude, count, suit preference (I realize that some prefer count as initial priority).
  • Standard (high with even, low with odd), . First card on a suit played by declarer is count, 2nd card tend to be s/p. First discard low card discouraging, high card encouraging. "remaining count" signals
  • UDCA (low with even, high with odd, low card encourage, high card discourages). First card on suit played by declarer is count, subsequent cards tend to be s/p. First discard low card encouraging, high card discouraging (original count signals)
  • Lavinthal is like standard except the first discard denys values in discarded suit, and is s/p for the other two suits (high higher of the two suits, low shows value in lower of the two suits), "remaining count" signals
  • u-Lavinthal is like udca, except with lavinthal discards instead of udca. (original count signals)
  • Roman (we will use upside count and attitude, but first discard an odd card is encouraging, and even card is discouraging and big even card is s/p for higher suit, low even for lower suit, (original count signals)
  • Alternative - UDCA count and attitude, first (free) play in a suit led by declarer is s/p (if no s/p attitude was given at trick one), second play in suit played by declarer is substitute count according to rules laid out below. First discard is lavinthal. Subsititute count on declarer's leads after other signals given. (original count signals)
The way the alternative signal works is on the first suit declarer leads, you give s/p signal (if you are not trying to win the trick). On the second lead by declarer you give substitute count either in the suit partner led to trick one (if not given or known), or in dummy's shortest suit. Should dummy have two short suits (equal length) then in the lowest ranking of those suits.

On to the example hand.




I know I said I will not show hands where all you had to do was lead to your parnter's ace. On this one, a club lead at trick one would have solved the problem, but let's examine how each of the signaling methods would have worked after a spade lead to trick one.

Nobody could signal anything on trick one, as both partners had a singleton. On the 2nd round of spades, here is how what the defenders would have played:

TRICK 2
For north:
Clear signals, south will work out north has club Ace:
Standard – north club Ten or nine – I've got club values, a clear signal
Roman – club seven (odd to encourage discarded suit)
Cloudy signals:
Lavinthal, u-Lavinthal, alternative – Diamond 2, suggest club value, or perhaps not (you have to throw something and sometime you will not have anything to signal, sometimes you might be trying to trick declarer to finesse you in clubs I guess.
Udca - north can discard the club 7 and hope his partner can read it as low, or discard the 9 or 7and hope for best (no focus on clubs yet).

The problem with UDCA could be experienced by any other method. With UDCA, you would wish for a lower club than the 7. In Roman discards, imagine if north's clubs did not include an odd card. He could discard a low even card in another suit, to point to clubs, but that would not be quite as clear.

For south
Clear signals:
Standard – diamond 8 (high is encouraging)
Roman – diamond 5 (odd is encouraging)
UDCA - diamond 4 (encouraging)

Not as clear:
Lavinthal, u-lavinthal, alternative – club 4 showing values in diamond or nowhere.

On the third spade, the methods might diverge, depending upon agreements. Would next discard be count in the discarded suit, or show location of additional values. I think in most cases, the future discards are count in the suit discard (if count has not been given earlier), subsequent discards in a suit can be s/p. Exceptions exist for alternative methods, and perhaps the others methods should adopt the substitute count model of the alternative method.


Trick Three:
North
Standard and Roman players will discard yet another high club. In standards case, he is showing even number of clubs remaining (even count, standard carding), while the roman player is showing odd number of clubs initially (udca count, original count).

UDCA players if they discarded a club earlier, will discard another (higher club than the 7) to show hopefully odd number of clubs initially, and help point out that the club 7 was a "low" spot card. If he threw a high diamond earlier, he might try low diamond (even number originally), followed by two more diamonds in the order lowest then higher to reconfirm club signal suit preference

Lavinthal players would discard a low club (standard), to show an odd number, while u-Lavinthal players will discard a high club (udca) to show an odd number. We will see what alternative players play when we investigate south's play to trick three.

South:
Lavinthal, u-lavinthal, and roman south's will signal length in diamonds. Standard via remaining count (even) using a high diamond spot, roman via original count, using a high spot (odd number of diamonds originally). Lavinthal and u-lavinthal will signal count via standard (high for even remaining count) for u-lavinthal and udca (high) for odd number of diamonds "original count".

For alternative players, they would use substitute count on the third round of declarer's suit to show legnth in the suit partner led. However in this case since length in spades (the suit led at trick one) is known, the alternative suit is dummy's shortest suit, so hearts. So both north and south would discard a high diamond (udca) to show an even number of hearts.

At the end of trick three, the defense at each table has almost signaled everything they need to send. There will be a few more things to share. The standard and roman's north's had made it perfectly clear to south that they had values in clubs (must be ace from dummy and south's hand). The other three of the other four norths might had to play the low diamond (s/p) at trick one, and udca had to play a high diamond (no diamond interest) or a potentially confusing 7. So these north's will play their cards in such a way as to confirm values in clubs (spot cards up the line). The rule here is that count will come first, then any remaining spots are suit preference. So let's take the lavinthal north player as an example. He would play low diamond trick 2 (club value), low diamond trick three (odd number of diamonds remaining), then when he discards his last two diamonds, it will be lowest then next to lowest to confirm the club signal.

North will signal his length in clubs and diamonds, and throw all his diamonds, south will signal his length in clubs and diamonds, and keep three diamonds and one club, and a heart or two. So before declarer gets very far in cashing his winners, NS will have a count on Club, diamonds and spades (and thus hearts, too) at five of the tables, and a count on all the suits directly at the sixth.

That is, except for the alternative player. The alternative north and south's both gave heart count's on the second round of spades, so for them, their next diamond card will be count in diamonds. At this point, both players should have a fairly good idea of EAST'S hand. The eight spades was obvious at trick 2. North will show 5 clubs originally, and count will be given in diamonds (north will pitch all of his eventually). So both partners should work out that east has three diamonds, 1 club, 1 heart.

Declarer will do the best he can, by running eight spades before the diamond AK. At the end of the eight spades, south has to hold onto one club (you will see why) and three diamonds, plus another card. Some people might discard all their clubs knowing their partner has the A (from the signal and cards seen). The need to hold onto the club in this ending would make this a class III hand (protect your partner from a squeeze). The threat card, amazingly wouldn't be dummy's K but rather declarer's singleton 2. Let's examine the ending.

If south had thrown a club earlier to keep Jx of hearts, dummy will discard the K and declarer's 2 is a threat against north. North can not keep three hearts and the -winner. This is why south has to keep a club to protect against east's singleton club (whatever it was), and north has to discard the A in this ending for the defense to win.

The hand was very challenging, because in a very larger bbo tournament (over 100 tables) at every table where clubs were not played at trick one, declarer took 13 tricks (many where in spades, however, where one heart ruff sets the suit up and two spade entries exist). Review the hand, and figure out the sequence of cards you -- and your partner -- will play to the eight spades east will run, and the significance of each card (if any), to be sure you would have enough info to safely arrive at the ending in the last diagram without any guess at what to keep


NEXT TIME, one more double dummy problem, then single dummy ones.
--Ben--

#5 User is offline   Antrax 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,458
  • Joined: 2011-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-February-14, 00:29

Wow. I'm only halfway through, but since this is probably going to be immortalized somehow, the third diagram in the second post is incorrect, and the explanation of the "squeeze" position on north in the first diagram in the third post should say "north can't keep four " and not "north can't keep 4". It took me a while trying to figure out what's special about the 4 that pitching it gives away the hand :)
1

#6 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-14, 00:52

View PostAntrax, on 2012-February-14, 00:29, said:

the third post should say "north can't keep four " and not "north can't keep 4". It took me a while trying to figure out what's special about the 4 that pitching


fixed typo, thanks



--Ben--

#7 User is offline   Antrax 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,458
  • Joined: 2011-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-February-14, 01:07

Do you mean the diagram is correct? The play doesn't show a Q pitch, it's just a recap of the second diagram on that post.
2

#8 User is offline   BunnyGo 

  • Lamentable Bunny
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,505
  • Joined: 2008-March-01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, ME

Posted 2012-February-14, 02:35

View PostAntrax, on 2012-February-14, 01:07, said:

Do you mean the diagram is correct? The play doesn't show a Q pitch, it's just a recap of the second diagram on that post.


To be more specific, Antrax is referring to the hand where the Jxxx of spades is key and East pitches the Jack, in the 2nd post.
Bridge Personality: 44 44 43 34

Never tell the same lie twice. - Elim Garek on the real moral of "The boy who cried wolf"
0

#9 User is offline   Fluffy 

  • World International Master without a clue
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,404
  • Joined: 2003-November-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:madrid

Posted 2012-February-14, 03:20

maybe depends on browser, but in chrome, the diagram where declarer pitches Q to mud the waters is never showing, what its shown is a copy of the earlier diagram where defender discarded Jxxx.

Please delete this useless post once you fix the problem.
0

#10 User is offline   Quartic 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 285
  • Joined: 2010-December-19
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Walking, Climbing, Mathematics, Programming, Linux, Reading, Bridge.

Posted 2012-February-14, 03:40

View PostFluffy, on 2012-February-14, 03:20, said:

maybe depends on browser, but in chrome, the diagram where declarer pitches Q to mud the waters is never showing, what its shown is a copy of the earlier diagram where defender discarded Jxxx.


I have the same issue in firefox.
0

#11 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,667
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2012-February-14, 06:08

Under count signals you might also discuss whether to give remaining or current count in a suit. Your example seems to assume original count but I think many B/I players find remaining count easier.
(-: Zel :-)
0

#12 User is offline   BunnyGo 

  • Lamentable Bunny
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,505
  • Joined: 2008-March-01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, ME

Posted 2012-February-14, 06:48

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-February-14, 06:08, said:

Under count signals you might also discuss whether to give remaining or current count in a suit. Your example seems to assume original count but I think many B/I players find remaining count easier.


There's an advantage to one or the other?
Bridge Personality: 44 44 43 34

Never tell the same lie twice. - Elim Garek on the real moral of "The boy who cried wolf"
0

#13 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,667
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2012-February-14, 07:01

View PostBunnyGo, on 2012-February-14, 06:48, said:

There's an advantage to one or the other?

There is if you forget cards already played occasionally! But really the main advantage for B/I is simply that you always signal count the same way from a given suit you are looking at so it becomes an automatic reflex (OK that's not so great for false-carding but that's a whole different ball game). I suppose there might be some small advantage to remaining upside-down count for the same reasons as basic udca but I cannot remember any hand where playing one over the other would have made a difference.

It was more a point that having made some detailed descriptions of different signalling methods I thought this should also have been included.
(-: Zel :-)
0

#14 User is offline   billw55 

  • enigmatic
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,757
  • Joined: 2009-July-31
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-February-14, 07:43

Maybe you should write a book and make some money. Well, as long as you are not, I appreciate your extensive time investment to produce material for free. Way to go!

View Postinquiry, on 2012-February-13, 23:50, said:

I know I said I will not show hands where all you had to do was lead to your parnter's ace. On this one, a club lead at trick one would have solved the problem, but let's examine how each of the signaling methods would have worked after a spade lead to trick one.

Nobody could signal anything on trick one, as both partners had a singleton. On the 2nd round of spades, here is how what the defenders would have played:

TRICK 2
For north:
Clear signals, south will work out north has club Ace:
Standard – north club Ten or nine – I've got club values, a clear signal
Roman – club seven (odd to encourage discarded suit)
Cloudy signals:
Lavinthal, u-Lavinthal, alternative – Diamond 2, suggest club value, or perhaps not (you have to throw something and sometime you will not have anything to signal, sometimes you might be trying to trick declarer to finesse you in clubs I guess.
Udca - north can discard the club 7 and hope his partner can read it as low, or discard the 9 or 7and hope for best (no focus on clubs yet).

Can you elaborate on the bit in blue? I learned that signaling with the 9 while also holding the ten is 100% wrong, that you must always signal with the highest equal when playing standard signals.

Also, so many diagrams are really bogging down my page load times. Is Chrome faster?
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
-gwnn
0

#15 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,667
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2012-February-14, 07:58

View Postbillw55, on 2012-February-14, 07:43, said:

Can you elaborate on the bit in blue? I learned that signaling with the 9 while also holding the ten is 100% wrong, that you must always signal with the highest equal when playing standard signals.


I suspect Ben was alluding to the "honour shows top of a sequence" signal here. Most would not treat the 10 as an honour but if you do then the 9 is clearer.
(-: Zel :-)
0

#16 User is offline   Antrax 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,458
  • Joined: 2011-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-February-14, 08:41

If you have JT, aren't you expected to discard the J?
0

#17 User is offline   BunnyGo 

  • Lamentable Bunny
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,505
  • Joined: 2008-March-01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, ME

Posted 2012-February-14, 08:51

View PostAntrax, on 2012-February-14, 08:41, said:

If you have JT, aren't you expected to discard the J?


Honor cards (sometimes, depending on agreement) carry meanings as signals besides just "encouraging". Sometimes it is meant to show the top of a sequence, some people use it as "obvious shift". Inquiry (or someone else) can probably explain it better, but the idea is you don't generally want to signal with honors, so using them should have very specific meanings, and normal signals should just be spot cards.
Bridge Personality: 44 44 43 34

Never tell the same lie twice. - Elim Garek on the real moral of "The boy who cried wolf"
0

#18 User is offline   Antrax 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,458
  • Joined: 2011-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2012-February-14, 09:16

Oh. That has nothing to do with the obvious shift concept from "a switch in time", right?
0

#19 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,667
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2012-February-14, 09:23

View PostAntrax, on 2012-February-14, 09:16, said:

Oh. That has nothing to do with the obvious shift concept from "a switch in time", right?


It is usually called an alarm clock signal. You throw an unreasonably high card that cannot be showing a sequence in order to wake partner up that something specific is required.
(-: Zel :-)
0

#20 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,566
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2012-February-14, 09:36

View PostAntrax, on 2012-February-14, 01:07, said:

Do you mean the diagram is correct? The play doesn't show a Q pitch, it's just a recap of the second diagram on that post.


pasted in the same hand twice.. fixed now.
--Ben--

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users