BBO Discussion Forums: Good or bad 8? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Good or bad 8? Stayman or not?

#1 User is offline   cherdano 

  • 5555
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,416
  • Joined: 2003-September-04
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2004-October-13, 12:25

Scoring: MP

The bidding goes
(P)-P-(P)-1NT-(P)


The 1NT by partner is 15-17; partner is a solid bidder and would need a pretty good reason to upgrade a 14 or 17 ccount (and might downgrade a bad 15 count).

Arend
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
0

#2 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2004-October-13, 12:33

I pass 1NT. Would bid if playing keri, though.
0

#3 User is offline   flytoox 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,606
  • Joined: 2003-June-06

Posted 2004-October-13, 12:33

I think I will. 2N should be safe.
0

#4 User is offline   inquiry 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 14,564
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia Island, FL
  • Interests:Bridge, what else?

Posted 2004-October-13, 13:25

At imps, you would just have to bid, ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU ARE VUL.. if your partner has 4 then your ZAR count is very high (8 hcp, 3 control, 10 distr, 2 fit honors, and 1 for doubleton.. that is 26 zar points and your partner will have at least 28 or so even iwth 4333 distribution).

At matchpoint is a much closer issue. Problem with bidding is you may get to 2NT down one, or worse perhaps 3NT down one. Also, be honest, wouldn't you be at least tempted to pass 2 bid by partner, so if he is 4-4 in majors you will not find your spade fit. I think at matchpoints I would pass, based upon frequency of this being the right bid.

Ben
--Ben--

#5 User is offline   Free 

  • mmm Duvel
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium
  • Interests:Duvel, Whisky

Posted 2004-October-13, 15:01

As Ben said, in imps it's clear you have to bid. In MP's, do what you think the field will do... I think most people would invite because they have their 8 HCP, so why not? With a little bit of luck you find a fit and then you're the good guy B)
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
0

#6 User is offline   Flame 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,085
  • Joined: 2004-March-26
  • Location:Israel

Posted 2004-October-13, 15:25

I would bid 2c, I think the hand got nice potential in spade contract.
After 1nt-2c-2h i play 2sp to show 4 spades and inv, this is normal when 2c doesnt promise 4 card major, and i would be very happy if partner leave it with 3 card spade suit.
2c is what the field will bid so thats good too.
0

#7 User is offline   pclayton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,151
  • Joined: 2003-June-11
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 2004-October-13, 15:34

MP's, all conditions I pass. IMPs vul I bid; and try 2N over 2D. NV I pass 2D and hope we arent in a 4-2. Over 2H I bid 2S.

Great hand for Keri btw.
"Phil" on BBO
0

#8 User is offline   hotShot 

  • Axxx Axx Axx Axx
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,976
  • Joined: 2003-August-31
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2004-October-13, 15:34

I bid 2!

P has max. 2 points for the queen in . So he has at least 13 in other suits.

If he does not have 4, you can still play 2 or 2 with 4-3 fit.
And if he does not have a 4card major, you p should have enough card in the minors to stop them.
If you don't see a 8 cards , a minimum partner can pass your 2NT rebid.

If you don't fit, opps won't fit too.

Tell we what is the killing lead after 1NT - 2 - 2 - 2NT?

Yes you might go down, but most of the field will go down with you.
I think even at MP's there is more to win than to loose.
0

#9 User is offline   luke warm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,951
  • Joined: 2003-September-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Bridge, poker, politics

Posted 2004-October-13, 18:23

two of you have said you'd bid playing keri... if partner shows 4 spades, do you invite with 3 or bid 4?

if i judged this hand worth an invite (i don't), and if i played my present system over a strong nt, the bidding would be:

1nt : 2c
2d : 2h*

2h= <4 hearts, might have 4 spades.. opener bids 2s with 4 else 2nt... is this much different from keri? thx
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
0

#10 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,614
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2004-October-13, 19:48

"two of you have said you'd bid playing keri... if partner shows 4 spades, do you invite with 3 or bid 4?"
You don't do either Jimmy.
Keri would bid

1N 2C 2D 2S = 4/5 S invit. opener now makes the decision.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#11 User is offline   pclayton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,151
  • Joined: 2003-June-11
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 2004-October-13, 19:52

luke warm, on Oct 13 2004, 04:23 PM, said:

two of you have said you'd bid playing keri... if partner shows 4 spades, do you invite with 3 or bid 4?

if i judged this hand worth an invite (i don't), and if i played my present system over a strong nt, the bidding would be:

1nt : 2c
2d : 2h*

2h= <4 hearts, might have 4 spades.. opener bids 2s with 4 else 2nt... is this much different from keri? thx

Partner doesnt actually ever 'show' when I invite with this hand. Its just 1N - 2 - 2 - 2, which shows 4 or 5 spades an an invite. Partner's rebids:

Pass - minimum w/ 3 spades
2N - minimum w/o 3 spades
3 - useful 4432, but minimum
3 - maximum with 4333
3 - max with 5 hearts w/o 3 spades
3 - invite with 4 spades
3N - max w/o 4 spades
4 - max with 4 spades
"Phil" on BBO
0

#12 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2004-October-13, 23:30

pclayton, on Oct 13 2004, 08:52 PM, said:

luke warm, on Oct 13 2004, 04:23 PM, said:

two of you have said you'd bid playing keri... if partner shows 4 spades, do you invite with 3 or bid 4?

if i judged this hand worth an invite (i don't), and if i played my present system over a strong nt, the bidding would be:

1nt : 2c
2d : 2h*

2h= <4 hearts, might have 4 spades.. opener bids 2s with 4 else 2nt... is this much different from keri? thx

Partner doesnt actually ever 'show' when I invite with this hand. Its just 1N - 2 - 2 - 2, which shows 4 or 5 spades an an invite. Partner's rebids:

Pass - minimum w/ 3 spades
2N - minimum w/o 3 spades
3 - useful 4432, but minimum
3 - maximum with 4333
3 - max with 5 hearts w/o 3 spades
3 - invite with 4 spades
3N - max w/o 4 spades
4 - max with 4 spades


Cannot opener pass 2S with a minimum and 4 card support, in Keri? I suppose that he is under considerable pressure to bid 3S with 4 card support, given doubt over whether responder has 4 or 5.

Like Luke Warm, I commit to 2NT when you have only a 4-3 Spade fit and opener is minimum. In the long term 2S is likely to be better, but not by a lot, and in the short term it could go either way (or there may be no advantage either way).

Where we appear to gain over Keri is that we absolutely commit to 2S rather than 3S when there is an 8 card fit and opener is rejecting the game try.

And I get to play in 2S when you have a 5-2 Spade fit. Presumably with Keri opener has to pull to 2NT, as 2S on a possible 4-2 fit does not reckon to gain.

To answer the original question, I invite with this hand. That Jack is worth more than it might be elsewhere. 50% of the time it is going to be worth a Queen.
Cannot opener pass 2S with a minimum and 4 card support, in Keri?
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#13 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,614
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2004-October-14, 00:43

"Cannot opener pass 2S with a minimum and 4 card support, in Keri?"

Of course he can if he does not like his hand, particularly if it contains lots of quacks. Incidentally rdk,(Klinger), has changed Keri a bit since the original book was published.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#14 User is offline   nikos59 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 278
  • Joined: 2003-May-17

Posted 2004-October-14, 01:36

For me it is an obvious pass at MPs, even
thinking about bidding is a gross overbid.
(I would probably also pass at imps.)

n
0

#15 User is offline   joker_gib 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,384
  • Joined: 2004-February-16
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 2004-October-14, 02:09

Pass at MP's
2 at IMP's ;)
Alain
0

#16 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2004-October-14, 03:24

The_Hog, on Oct 14 2004, 07:43 AM, said:

Incidentally rdk,(Klinger), has changed Keri a bit since the original book was published.

Did he publish anything of the new stuff, or is it still top secret? ;)
0

#17 User is offline   Fluffy 

  • World International Master without a clue
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,394
  • Joined: 2003-November-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:madrid

Posted 2004-October-14, 03:59

2 always.

I am probably influenced by the fact I did play 16-18 NT untill 2002.
0

#18 User is offline   mr1303 

  • Admirer of Walter the Walrus
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,541
  • Joined: 2003-November-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia
  • Interests:Bridge, surfing, water skiing, cricket, golf. Generally being outside really.

Posted 2004-October-14, 05:41

I'm not sure what version of Keri you guys are playing, but as I understood it raises of a major in the invitational sequence are as follows:

After 1NT 2C 2D 2S

3C = 4 trumps, useful minimum, 4432 pattern.
3D = Any max 4333 (even with 4S
3S = Max WITH EXACTLY 3 TRUMPS
4S = Max with 4 trumps (not 4333)
0

#19 User is offline   pclayton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,151
  • Joined: 2003-June-11
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 2004-October-14, 08:03

mr1303, on Oct 14 2004, 03:41 AM, said:

I'm not sure what version of Keri you guys are playing, but as I understood it raises of a major in the invitational sequence are as follows:

After 1NT 2C 2D 2S

3C = 4 trumps, useful minimum, 4432 pattern.
3D = Any max 4333 (even with 4S
3S = Max WITH EXACTLY 3 TRUMPS
4S = Max with 4 trumps (not 4333)

He he; I'm always botching these up at the table; should be evident from my posts.

As far as playing a 5-2 fit; if the hand is a bust; obviously we just transfer. And if the hand is an invite, we play 2N. Doesn't seem to be a great loss.
"Phil" on BBO
0

#20 User is offline   Flame 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,085
  • Joined: 2004-March-26
  • Location:Israel

Posted 2004-October-14, 08:23

I surpise by the answers, i think if i asked this question in an Israely forum i would get 90%+ of ppl bidding 2c.
What does 2c show in your systems ? i was thought many years ago and im still teaching now that 2c = 8 or more hcp, did you learn it as good 8 hcp ?
Im not saying that passing is bad and as a serious underbidder that i am , i might like it, but to see so many passing it, is surprising to me.
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users