[cherdano]

Flame, on Oct 14 2004, 02:23 PM, said:

What does 2c show in your systems ? i was thought many years ago and im still teaching now that 2c = 8 or more hcp, did you learn it as good 8 hcp ?

What does it show? Well at least an invitation opposite a 1NT. Which means I expect good odds to make game opposite partner's 16-17 points (he will accept more often than not).

When I first learned bridge, I was taught that you invite with good 8 or 9 points (hence the catch-phrase in the heading). That still seems reasonable to me, except I will bid game on many 9 point hands.

Arend

[Flame]

cherdano, on Oct 14 2004, 09:48 AM, said:

When I first learned bridge, I was taught that you invite with good 8 or 9 points (hence the catch-phrase in the heading). That still seems reasonable to me, except I will bid game on many 9 point hands.

Arend

The header suggest that with good 8 i will bid and with bad 8 i will not.
its not the same as to say, invite when you have 8 , and also invite when you have 9, which is how i understood my teacher.
Anyway its intresting.

[mikestar]

Any scoring, any vulnerability, I will bid 2C intending to invite game.

This hand starts out at 8 points, but gains value for honor concentration so call it 8 1/2. For suit play, it also gains value for extra controls (I have 3 controls in an 8point hand, a "normal" 3 control hand has 10 points). I'd allow another 1/2 point for spades for this. Then add a point for shape and I have 10 points--but partner may only be worth about 14 for suit play, as he may be 4-3-3-3, so inviting is enough.

[luke warm]

i'm sure mike is right, but his reasons for inviting are almost mine for passing... now if the spade suit was 5 pcs, with the same hcp, i'd invite... yes it's a nice 7/8 points, but no real source of tricks... of course, inviting might be right... who knows?

[pclayton]

FWIW, K and R calls this 8.9

[nikos59]

Says Flame:

Flame, on Oct 14 2004, 02:23 PM, said:

I surpise by the answers, i think if i asked this question in an Israely forum i would get 90%+ of ppl bidding 2c.
What does 2c show in your systems ? i was thought many years ago and im still teaching now that 2c = 8 or more hcp, did you learn it as good 8 hcp ?

Well, perhaps Israelis are better card players than the rest
of us (or more lousy defenders:)

The fact that everyone ignores
is that many years ago, when you were taught (and
I was taught as well) to bid 2C with 8+, people
were opening 1NT with 16-18. In the meantime,
the NT range has dropped to 15-17 (and is still
dropping as some will "upgrade" their 14s with
the slightest excuse, say because they have one ten-spot)
but people still invite with 8+ (while 9+ would
be expected). I guess the late Edgar Kaplan had
observed the phenomenon, possibly attributable to
inflation.

For my part, I never invite with 8, be it good 8 or bad
8 or ugly 8, unless perhaps I am playing
opposite Meckstroth or the local equivalent
Even then, I will probably pass again and then
say 'sorry partner but I downgraded my hand
because of the lack of intermediates' or the sterile
shape or any other learned excuse that may seem
appropriate.

Nikos

[1eyedjack]

I almost always invite with 11 opposite a 12-14 count 1NT opener. I am not much used to playing a stronger 1N opener but when I do I adjust on a one-for-one basis, indicating invite with 8 opposite 15-17.

Perhaps a combined 25 count evenly distributed between declarer and dummy has (in the long run) more playing potential, because of increased communication. This might be offset by greater scope for honours not to be supporting other honours.

[mikestar]

1eyedjack, on Oct 16 2004, 09:46 AM, said:

I almost always invite with 11 opposite a 12-14 count 1NT opener.  I am not much used to playing a stronger 1N opener but when I do I adjust on a one-for-one basis, indicating invite with 8 opposite 15-17.

Perhaps a combined 25 count evenly distributed between declarer and dummy has (in the long run) more playing potential, because of increased communication.  This might be offset by greater scope for honours not to be supporting other honours.

This is in accord with Kaplan, who believed in responding 3N to a 12-14 1NT on 12 (unless the hand had a serious flaw). He stated that 12 opposite 12 will make game more often than 20 opposite 6 (though 20 opposite 6 makes often enough that you should bid it). Kaplan was also of the opinion that a 24 count needed 4 points opposite.

[mikestar]

Most players playing 1N 15-17 will reject an invitation on 15 and accept on 16-17. If this is normal for your partner, this edges the odds toward pass--though I would still bid. Opposite a partner who will reject on 15, accept on 17, and use his judgement on 16, this hand is a clearcut game invitaion.

As a general rule, I think inviting on 8 is a mistake opposite 15-17, but this hand is worth more than 8 points.

[EricK]

mikestar, on Oct 16 2004, 01:01 PM, said:

Most players playing 1N 15-17 will reject an invitation on 15 and accept on 16-17. If this is normal for your partner, this edges the odds toward pass--though I would still bid. Opposite a partner who will reject on 15, accept on 17, and use his judgement on 16, this hand is a clearcut game invitaion.

As a general rule, I think inviting on 8 is a mistake opposite 15-17, but this hand is worth more than 8 points.

The point about this hand IMO is not the point count.

To make 3NT partner will need to make 9 tricks before opps make 5. They get to lead and so are already ahead in the race.

I don't have much help for partner in whatever non-♠ suit he is weakest, so I think even if partner considers himself maximum there is a good chance we will go down in 3NT; and if partner considers himself minimum we are likely not making 2NT.

Eric

[jdulmage]

You could have 3 potential winners for partner, maybe even 4, all sitting in spades. But you have nothing outside, so 2♣ is not happening, I would just bid 2NT and watch the rest unfold.

[han]

To those discussing whether to invite on an 8-count:

I believe there was an article in the bridge world a couple of years ago that stated that inviting to game with a balanced hand (through 2NT) is only useful with 8.5-9.0 points (using 4.5-3-1.5-.75-.25 point count). With less, better to pass, and with more, better to force to game. They got the result with a computer simulation at IMPs I believe.

I don't remember the name of the article, or the author, but it was about point count, and one of the messages was to give up on an invitational 2NT.

Since you have 8.25 points, the above might suggest passing, but the issue is more complex of course, because the chance of finding a spade fit would seriously upgrade your hand.

Also, some people quoted the K-R count, which gives higher point count for hands with concentrated honors. I believe it was the same article that pointed out that hands with spead out honors actually tend to play better versus a 1NT opening! (this is because they tend to work well with partner's possible long suits).