[wyman]

MP's

---

Interested in your auctions. Especially interested in your vanilla 2/1 auctions and your comments on the following:

1) North bid 1S over 1H: "With the heart void, I'm just not sure I want to game force with this hand, and MP scoring doesn't compel me to stretch."

2) South rebid 3H: "2N just didn't seem right with ♣Qx and such a chunky heart suit."

[ArtK78]

I would certainly treat the North hand is certainly a game forcing hand. I would not cater to the small chance that the potential misfit is so great that no game is makable.

1♥-2♦
2♥-2♠
3♥* -3♠
4♠

is certainly one possible auction.

*One might bid 3♣ here as a sort of fourth-suit forcing, as 3♥ seems inadequate. In any event, North will rebid spades and 4♠ should still be reached.

I am sure that South will be tempted to bid more at various points in the auction. Unfortunately, anything more than 4♠ is in jeopardy.

[xxhong]

Even if you play a vanilla 2/1, you still need a way to bid hands with 6+H and extra values. Suppose you don't play jump rebid to show solid H.
It would go like: 1H 2D 3H 3S 4S.
Of course, this hand fits well with systems that use 2H to show extra values.

1H 2D
2H(extra value, no 4+ D) 2S
3H(6+H) 3S(showing the shape)
4S(adequate now, also it denies C controls).

Of course, if you play 2H to show minimum and 2S to show 6+H, extra value.
It can go like:
1H 2D
2S(6+H extra value) 3S(5-6 shape, with 4 spades, we usually bid 2NT to wait)
4S (adequate now also it denies C controls).

wyman, on 2011-August-11, 09:37, said:

MP's

---

Interested in your auctions. Especially interested in your vanilla 2/1 auctions and your comments on the following:

1) North bid 1S over 1H: "With the heart void, I'm just not sure I want to game force with this hand, and MP scoring doesn't compel me to stretch."

2) South rebid 3H: "2N just didn't seem right with ♣Qx and such a chunky heart suit."

[Phil]

North has an easy game force. For every hand that you are able to stop in exactly 3♦ or 3♠, you will miss a lot of games and slams because partner does not know you have such great playing strength.

I like this sequence:

1♥ - 2♦
2♥ - 2♠
2N* - 3♠
4♣** - 4♦
4♠ - Pass

* - I think 2N is preferable to 3♥. If partner has a doubleton heart, he'll tell us. In the meantime, we can find out if partner is 4-6, or has something else he'd like to tell us.

** - 4♣ is a good spade raise which is warranted on the prime cards and spade support. It does not promise a club control.

[jonottawa]

wyman, on 2011-August-11, 09:37, said:

MP's

---

Interested in your auctions. Especially interested in your vanilla 2/1 auctions and your comments on the following:

1) North bid 1S over 1H: "With the heart void, I'm just not sure I want to game force with this hand, and MP scoring doesn't compel me to stretch."

2) South rebid 3H: "2N just didn't seem right with ♣Qx and such a chunky heart suit."

I don't care for north's bid or reasoning at all. Of course the N hand is worth a game force.

I might consider rebidding 2N with the S hand (to protect Qx and Kx mainly) but I do so far more frequently than most and if I did so I would surely be in a small minority. I think 3♥ would be the majority choice (it's almost textbook.) At any rate, it's hardly clear that rebidding 2N would have been a huge success as now the N hand is much more attractive for slam purposes (or alternatively might risk shooting 3N due to 'extras'.)

[mikeh]

The failure to respond 2♦ represents 'scared bridge' at its extreme. This is a GOOD hand, and well worth the gf. So you sometimes reach a contract that fails. Big deal.

1♥ 2♦
2♥ 2♠

Seems like a normal start. I don't like jumping to 3♥ with the south hand for two reasons. The heart suit isn't good enough. I prefer the style that suggests no losers opposite a stiff, but can live with a looser rule, but we really ought to hold the 10 here. The other reason is that this hand may play well in diamonds and 3♥ makes it, practically, very difficult to get to diamonds.

I confess that the auction gets murky hereafter.

I can see a case for 2N, 3♦ and 3♥ over 2♠. I think 3♦ is the best call. 2N suggests more club strength than we have, and 3♥ just sounds so much weaker, and leaves us poorly placed over a 4♥ raise...we will feel we haven't done enough yet our clubs leave us unable to risk the 5 level....picture KQxx xx AQJxx xx over there.

3♦ allows partner to take a heart preference on many hands, over which we bid a comfortable 3♠.

Unfortunately, my choice really endplays partner on this hand....it is far from clear that 3♠ shows 5! After all, with KQJx x AQJxx xxx, what is he supposed to bid?

Anyway, on the auction, I would raise to 4♠, very happy to play in a moysian....if he only has 4 spades, they are chunky...he has no heart length, won't have the stiff heart Q and feel stuck for a bid (KJxx Q AQJxx xxx can bid 3♥, just as it would with KQJx xx AQJxx xx) and has no club stopper..

This sequence doesn't promise short clubs... I will often be 3=5=3=2 and my actual shape is consistent as well.

As it is, I think I land on my feet after an auction in which I suspect neither partner felt entirely comfortable. But hands that fit well into standard bidding don't often end up posted as a problem.

[mike777]

wyman, on 2011-August-11, 09:37, said:

MP's

---

Interested in your auctions. Especially interested in your vanilla 2/1 auctions and your comments on the following:

1) North bid 1S over 1H: "With the heart void, I'm just not sure I want to game force with this hand, and MP scoring doesn't compel me to stretch."

2) South rebid 3H: "2N just didn't seem right with ♣Qx and such a chunky heart suit."

Pretty tough one

I would rkc over 3s and end up in 5s sorry pard....


1h=2d
2h=2s
3h=3s
4nt...

[JLOGIC]

Phil, on 2011-August-11, 11:23, said:

North has an easy game force. For every hand that you are able to stop in exactly 3♦ or 3♠, you will miss a lot of games and slams because partner does not know you have such great playing strength.

I like this sequence:

1♥ - 2♦
2♥ - 2♠
2N* - 3♠
4♣** - 4♦
4♠ - Pass

* - I think 2N is preferable to 3♥. If partner has a doubleton heart, he'll tell us. In the meantime, we can find out if partner is 4-6, or has something else he'd like to tell us.

** - 4♣ is a good spade raise which is warranted on the prime cards and spade support. It does not promise a club control.

I was with you until 4C, I think it shows a control as south could bid 4H with no control (which I don't think is a suggestion to play as south did not rebid 3H).

[Zelandakh]

I am also with Phil's auction but I think I would also interpret 4C as a good raise and not promising a control. Why does South not cue 4H over 4D though?

[vianu2]

JLOGIC, on 2011-August-11, 21:30, said:

I was with you until 4C, I think it shows a control as south could bid 4H with no control (which I don't think is a suggestion to play as south did not rebid 3H).

I agree (I don't think i could ever disagree with the logic of jlall))
So i am with u until 4♣ now is probably ok to bid 4♦ instead of 4cl?

Can we bid using gazzilli?
For me it is part of the 2/1 system .
1♥ - 1♠
2♣ (clubs or any 16+) - 2♦ (forcing)
2♠ (16+ with 3 cards fit and gf)- 3♦ (natural)
3♥ - 3♠ (5 cards, interested in club cue)
4♠
I don't know if 4D here denies club cue for me should not have control club.

[wyman]

Thanks for the comments. I was south and suggested that partner's hand was worth a game force (and even if you think it's not, the ability to get your shape out probably makes it right). I was interested in how the auction would go over 1S (if anyone took that route) because that's what happened at the table, but abstaining since you'd never be in that position is reasonable.

There is a funny story with this auction that I'll share (but has no bearing on the issues at hand). The full auction was (north is a beginner, so I'm certainly not suggesting this is an A/E auction )

1H - 1S
3H - 4D [4D: North - diamonds. South -cuebid for hearts]
4S - 4N [4S: North - spades. South - cuebid for hearts; 4N: North - RKC ♠, South - RKC ♥. And East asked me what 4N was. Knowing that NS were possibly not on the same page, I wrote down my answer on a spare cc and passed it to East. This gives UI to north, but probably less than if I'd blurted out what I thought. Comments on this?]

5D - 6S [0/3 keys; to play]
6N - Pass

I bid 6N for a couple of reasons. Mostly it looks to me like if we have 12 tricks in spades, we have 12 in NT, and I felt a little better playing a potentially hopeless contract than leaving that task to my partner (except then I noticed the 4N card on the table -- drats!). My partner fumes a bit about the 6N call and passes.

In any case, the funny part of the story is that lefty puts the club ace on the table, and RHO yells something-or-other about it being his lead, so I call the director. My partner then accepts the club lead out of spite and tables his hand as dummy and lets me play it -- a very "well, you got us here" decision. Of course, opps cash 5 clubs off the top, when forbidding a club lead from the other side actually lets the contract roll on a spade guess.

[vianu2]

This is the first topic i really enjoyed on that forum

I want to add that i feel like i was an actor in your story , these kind of things happened to me very often. Yes, especially on the 1H-1SP auction. I really think i already knew somehow that story.

[Phil]

JLOGIC, on 2011-August-11, 21:30, said:

I was with you until 4C, I think it shows a control as south could bid 4H with no control (which I don't think is a suggestion to play as south did not rebid 3H).

I had considered this but I think 2N could a slow-down/stall with a positional, but marginal, ♣stop still holding good hearts. If we held something like Ax AKJTxx xx QTx I think we'd want to have a natural 4♥ available.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mike777, on 2011-August-11, 18:42, said:

Pretty tough one

Pretty tough one to say the least.

I think you need to start with a 2/1 GF of 2D!.....
....and then show your 5/6 shape even if it means bidding Spades the 2nd time at the 4-level.
Partner may NOT have 3 cards Sp, but may leave you in with 2 cards.
If he has only 1 card Sp or a void, then knowledge of 6 cards in Diam may make the 5D contract a favorite....

[jdeegan]

Do not stop und zink! Jus bid zee hand.
1♥
2♦
2♥
2♠
3♥
3♠
4♠

[whereagles]

1♥ 1♠
3♥ 4♦
4♠ 5♦
5♠ pass

1♠ = probably a better tactical bid than the space-consuming 2♦.
4♦ = this should be taken as natural (and 55+) unless you have a specific agreement otherwise.
4♠ = preference, leaving it up to pard to go further.
5♦ = can't RKCB without club control and a void.
5♠ = no club control, so stop.

Not the best contract but at least it's not biased and it allows for a slam-try while keeping the eyes on the ball.

[vianu2]

whereagles, on 2011-August-14, 14:09, said:

1♥ 1♠
3♥ 4♦
4♠

[P_Marlowe]

1H (1) - 2D (2)
3H (3) - 3S (4)
4D (5) - 4S (6)
5D (7) - Pass

(2) with a good 6 card diamond suit and a strong hand, bid diamond
this should answer your first question
(3) you have a good 6 card suit
this should answer your 2nd question, after a gf 2D, you can discuss
2H or 3H (this is a matter of style, we had this on the forum already
discussed, in the end I dont understand the criterias, that make players
from North America decided between 2H and 3H).
But after 1S, 3H is clear cut.
(4) what else, at one point in time you have to introduce spades,
3S does not promise a 4 card suit, may just be values / a stopper
(5) due to the lack of a better bid, and Kx is as good as xxx
(6) Cue, denies a top honor in hearts, but given the heart shortage,
hearts can be developed
(7) Given that opener is min for his auction, he did enough, denies also
a club control

With kind regards
Marlowe