[Hanoi5]

---

How do you treat West's 4♥ after a weak jump overcall?
Do you agree with 5♦? How about 5♥?
Who's more at fault for missing the slam?

[BunnyGo]

1) I treat the 4♥ bid as natural, strong enough to want to be in game, but not particularly interested in slam.

2) East has a tough bid. I'd think that bids here are cue-bids, but what East wants to know is how good West's clubs, diamonds and hearts are (in particular, the Ace of clubs, King of Diamonds, and King of hearts...two of these makes 6 good, three makes 7 good). If this is a forcing pass situation (and I think it is), then I think passing and bidding next time is better, it's more forward going and better describes the hand.

3) 5 hearts seems normal. With two small spades and three small diamonds West does not have a good cause to bid slam opposite what seems to be a cue-bid (even if it's a second suit...that's not so good).

4) I give East the blame.

Edit: I think the double by East is the worst bid of the sequence. East is still willing to go to slam, and has no reason to think that 5S isn't necessarily making.

This post has been edited by BunnyGo: 2011-August-04, 21:28

[nige1]

Hanoi5 asked " How do you treat West's 4♥ after a weak jump overcall? Do you agree with 5♦? How about 5♥? Who's more at fault for missing the slam?"

IMO 4♥ is pre-emptive -- 4♣ could show a high-card raise. LHO removed the chance to cue bid 4♠. Pass might be better than double over 5♠. But it's all a matter of style -- for example some partnerships would treat the 5♦ try as trial-bid showing length. IMO both players were equally (but only slightly) at fault. Lack of ♠ duplication is the key.

---

[Yu18772]

like nige1 said - 4♥ for me is closer to preempt (I might have 8-9 points and not the regular 6, but not a solid raise to game) - so I bid 4♣ with W hand (shows high card raise to game or better).
From that point of view it depends on what is agreed - if 4♥ shows a good high card raise than I think E would do better by bidding 5♣ , it leaves W room to bid 5♦ if in doubt, and W is likely to have a problem with ♠ control. I dont really see how W with xx in spades can continue to 6, and X over 5♠ had completely shut it down, so for me - East is to blame 90%.

[flytoox]

4H is not (or should not be) preempt. It shows a limited raise. 4C shows a GF hand （Fine if you think West is good enough for a game）.

I think East misestimate his offensive strength. Yes East tried with 5D, but I think dbling 5S is still a bad choice. East could pass 5S to show willingness to bid further. Or more aggressively, East should just jump to 6H (if they have agreed that 4H is not weak).

So I think 90% blame goes to East.

[Free]

West's hand is a monster after the ♣ preempt, why did he bid 4♥?

[Cyberyeti]

4♥ is a horrible bid, at this vul could be Qxxxx and out, 4♣ please.

You have no reason to suppose a slam makes, N seems to have at this vul a very long and strong spade suit, I can easily visualise him with 9 solid spades, and xx in both minors. S has bid 3♣ with only a KJ high suit vul, so could well have the K and possibly J of diamonds. There are endplay options, but none are guaranteed to work.

My objection to doubling 5♠ is you have no reason to suppose you're beating it, make dummy's clubs KQ high for example.

I think you should pass (F) over 5♠, but I'm not sure I wouldn't double with the W hand if I thought 4♥ showed this type of values.

Mainly W for the 4♥ bid.

[hotShot]

I don't like your system, if East has no better way to open this monster.

All blame for not reaching the slam goes to West. 4♥ does not show this hand. 4♣ would be a much better description.

Over 4♥ West could bid a forcing 5♣ to show East some extras, but this would be a rescue operation.
If one believe in Wests 4♥ West can't double 5♠.

[mfa1010]

I disagree with the preempt vs preempt thoughts. For me 4♥ is a limit raise or a minimal GF raise. So he has a normal maximum for 4♥, or maybe he is just a little too good. With ♦Txx I understand that he didn't bid slam. East's double of 5♠ is out to lunch. Please not with 7-5 and a void in the suit they are bidding. I would have gambled 6♥ over 4♠, and again 6♥ over 5♠, but at least east could pass 5♠ and see what partner does.

[jdeegan]

WOW! You might lose two diamonds at six hearts if you misguess. Still, you want to be there.
1. 4♥ is a slight underbid, and I would have bid 4♣, but it is hard to give that a charge.
2. Opener should have passed 5♠ or just bid 6 ♥ or even 6♦ to show his really good playing hand for hearts. With 7-5-1 shape why would you want to defend? The issue is what to do over 6♠ or 7♣, and that is what East should be setting up.

[ahydra]

I agree with 4H - too flat for 4C despite the ideally positioned clubs. (At first I thought the 3C bid was 3S and was puzzled at why people were suggesting 4C... stupid hand diagrams don't show up properly for me)

After that, if East passes (forcing) then pulls West's X to 5D I think this shows his shapely hand not interested in defending. West can then raise to 6H with the aforementioned clubs & the double fit. If you don't play forcing passes then I think East has to do more, eg 6D.

ahydra

[xxhong]

4H is fine if you play 4H to show a upper limit raise to weak gf hand. Over that, east can even guess to bid 6H usually, usually you don't need much from partner to play 6H, two red kings would be enough.

Hanoi5, on 2011-August-04, 20:47, said:

---

How do you treat West's 4♥ after a weak jump overcall?
Do you agree with 5♦? How about 5♥?
Who's more at fault for missing the slam?

[MrAce]

Well, call it horrible or not, with west hand i would bid 4♥. I am trying to put myself in West's shoes, and trying to do this by not looking at 4 hands.

There is a good chance pd is short in ♣ suit. I have 11 flat hand with 6 hcps of it is in pd's short suit or doubleton. Of course my AQ ♣ is AK now, i am aware, call it 12 but this is as far as this hand improves and not a 4♣ bid for me.

There must be something seriously wrong with my logic, i am very confused to see majority thinks the guy with flat 11-12 hcp, who already told this by the way imo, should take the blame and the guy with 7-5 hand who was jump supported by partner over a preempt did just fine by letting it go. His opponent is bidding by his own 4♠ and then 5♠ Red vs White and he is the one with ♠ void for God's sake ! And doubling it !

I am not even mentioening, for some of us, due to 5♦ bid, his pass would be forcing. Who can blame West for not competing at 6 level with a flat hand, when he was going to refuse the slam invitation due to his lack of ♦ honors anyway ?

[Cyberyeti]

MrAce, on 2011-August-05, 16:23, said:

Well, call it horrible or not, with west hand i would bid 4♥. I am trying to put myself in West's shoes, and trying to do this by not looking at 4 hands.

There is a good chance pd is short in ♣ suit. I have 11 flat hand with 6 hcps of it is in pd's short suit or doubleton. Of course my AQ ♣ is AK now, i am aware, call it 12 but this is as far as this hand improves and not a 4♣ bid for me.

There must be something seriously wrong with my logic, i am very confused to see majority thinks the guy with flat 11-12 hcp, who already told this by the way imo, should take the blame and the guy with 7-5 hand who was jump supported by partner over a preempt did just fine by letting it go. His opponent is bidding by his own 4♠ and then 5♠ Red vs White and he is the one with ♠ void for God's sake ! And doubling it !

I am not even mentioening, for some of us, due to 5♦ bid, his pass would be forcing. Who can blame West for not competing at 6 level with a flat hand, when he was going to refuse the slam invitation due to his lack of ♦ honors anyway ?

All 4♣ says is I'm full value for my raise to game, I don't just have 5 hearts and 8 other cards, and you have plenty for that. He has roughly 10 more points than he guaranteed with 4♥ and 6 more than he will have most of the time, plus control in the preemptor's suit.

Over 4♣-(4♠)-5♦ you can now bid 5♥ with a clear conscience and if partner raises over 5♠ then he raises, but at least he has an idea that you have a hand rather than shooting for you to have the K♦ as your other card along with your heart honour.

Pass over 5♠ is only forcing if the first bid by responder showed values. If 4♥ is a preempt, pass over 5♠ is not forcing, if you've bid 4♣ (or 4♥ showed values) I'd suggest it is, and inviting you to bid at the 6 level would suggest a spade control and a really good hand, I think it's what I'd do if 4♣ was bid first time.

I think it's a pretty close decision as to whether W doubles or bids 6♥. He's signed off once, he has a spare trump and can cover xx in the preemptor's suit, but he has a really bad diamond holding.

[mikeh]

I agree with those who bid 4♣ as responder...not because I think 4♥ shows weakness...I don't....the maxim of 'don't preempt over a preempt' springs to mind. This hand is, in my view, a minimum for 4♣ but the extra and strong trumps, the positional value of the secondary club honours, and the spade ruffing value all make it, in my mind, worth 4♣.

the way I look at these raises over preempts is that we should be bidding 3♥ on hands on which, had RHO passed, we'd be bidding a full values 2♥. If we want to keep our 3♥ bid within a tolerable range of strength, we have to lower the maximum values as we lower the minimum values. That in turn means that we have to commit to game with a full values limit raise....and that becomes the lower limit for 4♥. When we have a full values game raise, and this to me has become one.....I look at it as xx KQxxx 10xx AKx with silent opps....we need to bid 4♣.

Over 4♠, opener has an interesting problem. 5♦ looks like a normal call, until one puts oneself, as one should, in partner's position. What would we call with, say xx AJxxxx AKQJx void? Wouldn't 5♦ suggest that we were worried about spades for slam? Otoh, if he is looking a the diamond K, he'll know that we're worried about diamonds, so maybe he should work it out...and if he doesn't have the diamond K, maybe we should avoid slam.

Had responder bid 4♣, showing a real hand, I think just blasting 6♥ is reasonable, but I'd bid 5♠ and over 6♣, 6♦ and we should/could reach grand opposite the red Kings and the club A.

Now, opposite a real 4♥ bid, I think jumping to slam over 4♠ is too optimistic, and I think the best bid is 5♣, hoping to elicit a 5♦ cue bid, over which we bid slam.

Having bid 5♦, the focus shifts.....but if West fears spades, then he really has no choice but to bid 5♥. Even if he infers that partner isn't worried about spades, he must surely expect partner to be worried about diamonds.

Fortunately, N comes charging to the rescue. Doubling 5♠ is inexplicable to me.....I would have expected everyone and the butler to see pass as forcing. Now, responder should appreciate that even if 4♥ were acceptable, he has a magic hand on the auction....that partner isn't in fact worried about spades....were he worried about spades, he doubles 5♠.

So while I can and do criticize several calls, the earlier choices did not actually cause the partnership to miss slam. In legal terms, any causal connection between the choices of 4♥ or 5♦,and the missing of slam, was broken by the intervention of the 5♠ call.....a novus actus interveniens. So I assign 100% of the actual responsibility to opener.

Btw, in 6♥, I think the correct play is to eliminate the black suits, making sure to ruff high in order to preserve entries to dummy. I need to hook the club K in order to preserve trumps in my hand. Say a spade lead...ruff, cross to club Q, ruff a spade, cross in trump, ruff a club, cash the diamond A, cross in trump, cash the club A and lead a diamond in the 4 card ending of xx 10x in dummy and x Qxx in hand, in the reds.

This caters to the stiff K offside as well sa the more likely Kx offside.

If S showed out on the second round of spades or if I read N as 9=1=1=2, I'd change horses and not cash the diamond A...I'd play N for a stiff diamond and would preserve my A and would lead a diamond from dummy, covering N's N's card.

[MrAce]

I agree 3♥ shows top of a 2♥ bid, had RHO did not preempt.
I agree 4♥ is top of a limit invitation hand, or at least a good invitation
I also think 4♣ should show AT LEAST top of a full value raise, not the rock bottom, especially this full raise has ALREADY been upgraded from a limit hand.

But that part is i can live with, no strong feelings, i maybe conservative or whatever..

Here is the part that confuses me when people mention bean counts in an auction like this to blame west. I mean pd opens, one of the guy preempts red vs white, i have balanced 11 hcp with AQ of the preempt suit, other dude bids 4♠ red vs white and then bid 5♠ by himself again!! Pd doubles !!

And i am the one in guilt to miss a slam ? Just becasue i have 1-2 beans extra than i showed ?

What was i supposed to do if i held much less beans, such as

xxx Qxxxx xx Axx ?

Upto the definitions above, i then should have started with 3♥, not even 4. In fact, this is a laydown slam as oppose to the one with too many beans.

Even more dramatic hand

xxx Qxxxx x xxxx another laydown slam. Dont get me wrong, i am not suggesting anything, i am not even sure if there is anyone to blame, there are a lot of bids that we can critisize as Mike said, but dont blame West just by looking at hcps he held in his hand, which is borderline decision to start with, and slam was there even if he had much less than what he had.

My point is, slam could be bid if 7-5 hand takes responsibility, considering the fact that there is a maniac at the table bidding all the way upto 5♠ byhimself, RED vs WHITE!! and he is void in this suit. Pass is of course forcing but i wouldnt even rely on that, there aint no way to scientifically learn everything here, listen to your gut feeling and bid it, make it or go down, or pass and maybe pd bids it, but if missed just dont blame anyone, especially west.

[jonottawa]

I blamed W until the double of 5♠.

I'm not sure if forcing passes exist once we've explored and voluntarily signed off at the 5 level, though. Maybe that's what E was thinking.

[rhm]

MrAce, on 2011-August-05, 18:36, said:

I agree 3♥ shows top of a 2♥ bid, had RHO did not preempt.
I agree 4♥ is top of a limit invitation hand, or at least a good invitation
I also think 4♣ should show AT LEAST top of a full value raise, not the rock bottom, especially this full raise has ALREADY been upgraded from a limit hand.

But that part is i can live with, no strong feelings, i maybe conservative or whatever..

Here is the part that confuses me when people mention bean counts in an auction like this to blame west. I mean pd opens, one of the guy preempts red vs white, i have balanced 11 hcp with AQ of the preempt suit, other dude bids 4♠ red vs white and then bid 5♠ by himself again!! Pd doubles !!

And i am the one in guilt to miss a slam ? Just becasue i have 1-2 beans extra than i showed ?

What was i supposed to do if i held much less beans, such as

xxx Qxxxx xx Axx ?

Upto the definitions above, i then should have started with 3♥, not even 4. In fact, this is a laydown slam as oppose to the one with too many beans.

Even more dramatic hand

xxx Qxxxx x xxxx another laydown slam. Dont get me wrong, i am not suggesting anything, i am not even sure if there is anyone to blame, there are a lot of bids that we can critisize as Mike said, but dont blame West just by looking at hcps he held in his hand, which is borderline decision to start with, and slam was there even if he had much less than what he had.

My point is, slam could be bid if 7-5 hand takes responsibility, considering the fact that there is a maniac at the table bidding all the way upto 5♠ byhimself, RED vs WHITE!! and he is void in this suit. Pass is of course forcing but i wouldnt even rely on that, there aint no way to scientifically learn everything here, listen to your gut feeling and bid it, make it or go down, or pass and maybe pd bids it, but if missed just dont blame anyone, especially west.

I agree with this.
A 4♥ bid in such an auction, where your options raising partner are limited, should say I believe 4♥ will be the right contract most of the time even opposite a good but normal opening bid.
4♣ should show real slam interest in my opinion, and this West hand is at best borderline. I prefer 4♥, because 4♣ will often lead to a poor slam (or 5♥), not on paper but at the table.
While it is true that you should not preempt over a preempt I believe this does not apply when a super-fit is already established.
So a 4♥ bid is wide ranging, which creates problems for the opponents as well, as is a 4♣ bid.
I believe a direct 6♥ over 4♥ as a two way shot would have been a fine bid, in particular after the 4♠ bid. 4♠ must show a very good suit opposite a preempt in a different suit. And there are merits not to expose your distribution in the bidding, particularly when you are weak in HCP.
However 5♦ is barely acceptable, but tries to cut it too fine in my opinion.
Doubling 5♠ is suicide. Pass should be forcing, but there is little point, since I do not think East should be prepared to defend with this hand 5♠.
This is just a matter of hand evaluation and judgment.
You can tell that East is of the scientific type with little imagination or understanding for tactics.

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

mikeh, on 2011-August-05, 17:56, said:

Btw, in 6♥, I think the correct play is to eliminate the black suits, making sure to ruff high in order to preserve entries to dummy. I need to hook the club K in order to preserve trumps in my hand. Say a spade lead...ruff, cross to club Q, ruff a spade, cross in trump, ruff a club, cash the diamond A, cross in trump, cash the club A and lead a diamond in the 4 card ending of xx 10x in dummy and x Qxx in hand, in the reds.

A slight improvement:
- Ruff the spade lead
- Cross to dummy in trumps
- Ruff a spade
- Cash ♦A.
- If an honour appears, claim; otherwise take a club finesse

That caters for the possibility that LHO doesn't have ♣K, but does have a singleton diamond honour, KJ doubleton, Kxxx, or Jxxx.

[mcphee]

Interesting problem I thought. With 5 losers which offer little help to fill partners other possible suit I am not so sure W is worth 4C, if that is best possible raise to 4H. We would feel a lot better if our C values were D.

5D for me is forward going with slam interest and once having made that call leaves pass of 5S as F. It is difficult to express how I think about the double of 5S, might be the worst bid of the year.