[TWO4BRIDGE]

rduran1216, on 2011-June-26, 01:30, said:

MP all red

---

Let's look at Responder's hand again.
Responder surmises that slam looks good
even if Opener is a MINIMUM but HAS "shortness" ( most likely in a black suit )....
because "shortness opposite other shortness" yields lots of tricks with a good fit.

However, if he has NO shortness and a MINIMUM, you need to know about controls ( especially in clubs ).
If you use Jac2NT or 2S! ( Jacoby for Hts ) , you don't want to hear the "dreaded" 4H reply with no shortness and a minimum.

You need to use a "modified Jacoby" where the minimum reply w/o shortness is NOT 4H.... but a lower bid on the 3-level .

That way you can find out via low-level cuebids if Opener has the ♣K or not.

If opener shows NO shortness but has the ♣K AND at least 2 key cards, then slam is a good bet.

If he has THREE key cards AND the ♣K, bid the grand !

[jmcw]

MrAce, on 2011-June-26, 17:43, said:

But he did not say 2♦ will create problems in solving losers, he asked how will u set ♥ as trumps and ask RKCB later.

You bid 3♣, ok, pd bids 3NT or 3♠ or 4♦. Now what ? You have everything ready for a good date with a hot chick who is waiting u, except u dunno how to reach her because u lost her number.

If u dont have 3♥ over 2♦ as forcing available, or any other bid in your pdship that shows an immediate ♥ forcing hand, maybe starting 1♠ is not as good as it sounds.

If the auction proceeds as you suggest it may turn out badly. Certainly, it becomes almost impossible to set ♥ and RKC with clarity.

However, I'm not convinced J2N can solve the ♣ problem unless there is a well defined (better than mine) set of agreements that "slows" opener down when he has a balanced minimum.

Many of the replies favoring J2N do do not explore this problem and leave the impression they are going to J2N with ALL GF hand containing 4+ trumps.

Personally, I play J2N with quasi balanced hands with 6+ controls, by that definition the responding hand has 3 flaws, a stiff ♦, a good trick source ♠, and only 5 controls. My "correct" system bids (if I hide the ♠ suit) are 4♣ showing 4/5 controls and 4+ trumps, or 2♠ ambiguous splinter.

A couple of replies want to start with a GF 2♣, I've never heard of this with 4+ trumps, 2/1 for me has always a maximum of 3 card support for the major.

[rhm]

jmcw, on 2011-June-27, 22:29, said:

Personally, I play J2N with quasi balanced hands with 6+ controls, by that definition the responding hand has 3 flaws, a stiff ♦, a good trick source ♠, and only 5 controls.

A couple of replies want to start with a GF 2♣, I've never heard of this with 4+ trumps, 2/1 for me has always a maximum of 3 card support for the major.

Well this is because the combination of playing 2/1 and J2N is common. Playing 2/1, however, I always felt J2N somewhat redundant in a well oiled partnership.
If the J2N bidder is the captain, there is no urgent necessity to relay information. like your trump length or whether you are balanced to opener (you know).
And if you start with a lower GF 2♣ you can hear opener's natural rebid and set ♥ as trumps on the next round. On the way you might get useful information, like opener having six ♥ or there might be an alternate 4-4 fit, which may turn out superior, for example.
Of course a lot depends how you structure your continuation after a GF 2♣, but I have trouble seeing why this should put you at a disadvantage compared to those starting with 2NT. Starting lower often has advantages.

Rainer Herrmann

[cherdano]

rhm, on 2011-June-28, 03:52, said:

Well this is because the combination of playing 2/1 and J2N is common. Playing 2/1, however, I always felt J2N somewhat redundant in a well oiled partnership.
If the J2N bidder is the captain, there is no urgent necessity to relay information. like your trump length or whether you are balanced to opener (you know).
And if you start with a lower GF 2♣ you can hear opener's natural rebid and set ♥ as trumps on the next round. On the way you might get useful information, like opener having six ♥ or there might be an alternate 4-4 fit, which may turn out superior, for example.
Of course a lot depends how you structure your continuation after a GF 2♣, but I have trouble seeing why this should put you at a disadvantage compared to those starting with 2NT. Starting lower often has advantages.

I don't think I quite agree (there is a lot of value in 2♣ showing clubs, or a balanced hand or clubs), but I have a lot of sympathy for this view. Playing 2♣ as clubs-or-balanced, with relay-style followups, it seems to work pretty well to also include very strong hands with 4-card support. Then 2NT can be a minimalish game forcing raise with 4 trumps, and 2♣ denies 4 hearts unless responder is planning to completely take control over the auction via the relays.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I guess we'll never see Opener's hand on this deal.... like so many threads here.

[Phil]

cherdano, on 2011-June-28, 04:08, said:

....Playing 2♣ as clubs-or-balanced, with relay-style followups, it seems to work pretty well to also include very strong hands with 4-card support. ...and 2♣ denies 4 hearts unless responder is planning to completely take control over the auction via the relays.

Agree with all of this.

I think the relevant part is that this hand wants to be in charge. Whether or not we want to do this via a forcing raise, or 2♣, is really a function of partnership agreement, and how we can best elicit information from partner.

[jillybean]

cherdano, on 2011-June-28, 04:08, said:

I don't think I quite agree (there is a lot of value in 2♣ showing clubs, or a balanced hand or clubs), but I have a lot of sympathy for this view. Playing 2♣ as clubs-or-balanced, with relay-style followups, it seems to work pretty well to also include very strong hands with 4-card support. Then 2NT can be a minimalish game forcing raise with 4 trumps, and 2♣ denies 4 hearts unless responder is planning to completely take control over the auction via the relays.

I like this. I have played 2C/1M as balanced gf or clubs for a long time, despite a lot of raised eye brows at the club.
I'm not completely sure of what you mean by the relay-style followups. Could you please explain.

[OleBerg]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-June-26, 14:50, said:

LOL @ the idea of 2♠ as a SJS with 4 card support.

Enable "Satire-detector".

[MrAce]

jmcw, on 2011-June-27, 22:29, said:

If the auction proceeds as you suggest it may turn out badly. Certainly, it becomes almost impossible to set ♥ and RKC with clarity.

However, I'm not convinced J2N can solve the ♣ problem unless there is a well defined (better than mine) set of agreements that "slows" opener down when he has a balanced minimum.

Many of the replies favoring J2N do do not explore this problem and leave the impression they are going to J2N with ALL GF hand containing 4+ trumps.

Personally, I play J2N with quasi balanced hands with 6+ controls, by that definition the responding hand has 3 flaws, a stiff ♦, a good trick source ♠, and only 5 controls. My "correct" system bids (if I hide the ♠ suit) are 4♣ showing 4/5 controls and 4+ trumps, or 2♠ ambiguous splinter.

A couple of replies want to start with a GF 2♣, I've never heard of this with 4+ trumps, 2/1 for me has always a maximum of 3 card support for the major.

You have valid points.

To be honest, if u look at my response, i am one of those who started with 1♠. But the more i think the less i like it. In fact after thinking more, i am more convinced 2♣ looks much better to me.

The reason i started 1♠ was,

a- i play 3 ♥ later forcing, but it is something that i hate, which i did myself here, to reply a logic seeking question with my personal system agreement/treatment.

b- When holding AKQxx ♠ or any other suit for that matter,when we bid it first, it is always a risk that pd will almost ALWAYS refuse all slam attempts with xx(x) of this suit. However that didnt scare me because i really dont need pd's approval for slam in this hand.

On the other hand give pd hands like xx KJxxx KQxx Qx, a 2 ♣ starter will make his slam more times than others.

I like starting 2♣ for other reasons than those who choosed it in the topic to be honest. In this hand we have a solidish side suit, a good 4 card fit and a stiff ♦. All we want is a non ♣ lead to improve our chances and ask keycards.

[jillybean]

jillybean, on 2011-June-28, 09:29, said:

I like this. I have played 2C/1M as balanced gf or clubs for a long time, despite a lot of raised eye brows at the club.
I'm not completely sure of what you mean by the relay-style followups. Could you please explain.

Who else plays relay style follow ups to 1M:2C? Could someone explain their system please?

[Zelandakh]

Here are the notes from Bocchi-Duboin's CC for example (typos are original!):-

NOTE 4 2C Response over 1M opening
The response of 2C is asking for strenght and distribution if opener shows a max hand it becames F.G.
Normally we bid 2C with these type of hands:
5+C 11+ hcp
Balanced hand W or w/o fit 12+hcp
limit 3 card raise in partner's suit
strog hand with fit in this case we can have longer D or H not very good suit.
Developpements:
1M 2C
2D = any minimum w/o 4OM over this bid 2H is F.G. relè and the responses are same of max hands
2H = 4+ OM any strenght
2S = 4+C 15+ hcp
2NT= one suited hand 15+ hcp
3C = 5M 4D 15+ hcp
3D = 5M 5D 15+ hcp
3H = 6M 4D 15+ hcp
3S = 5M 4D 4OM 15-17 hcp
3NT= 5M 4D 4OM 18+ hcp

[masse24]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-June-26, 15:33, said:

Does anyone recall this hand from November of last year:
Partner opens 1H and you hold:
A K J 10 8
A 10 5 2
6
J 9 2

Look familiar?

The thread title was:
Splinter or Jacoby 2NT? Pick your poison ... by masse24

http://www.bridgebas...-or-jacoby-2nt/

The 1H - 2Sjump was also discussed.

ArtK78 quoted from a Steve Robinson article ( listed by peachy ):
"When you use Jacoby 2NT, you want to become the captain. When you splinter you want opener to become the captain. In other words, you Jacoby 2NT when you want to learn about opener’s hand. You splinter when you want opener to learn about your hand."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Edit: Unfortunately, like so many of these threads, the OP never did post the parent hand to see what would have worked best .

OOPS! Better late than never....both hands now posted: Splinter or Jacoby 2NT

The best summary for me from that post was Peachy's quote: "When you use Jacoby 2NT, you want to become the captain. When you splinter you want opener to become the captain. In other words, you Jacoby 2NT when you want to learn about opener’s hand. You splinter when you want opener to learn about your hand."

[farrnbach]

I would start with a jacoby 2NT and hope p can make a contribution

If he signs off in 4h -> RKBW

The alternative could be 1S to see what happens

[jonottawa]

han, on 2011-June-27, 04:54, said:

2C. I'm too strong to describe my hand, I'm going to give partner room to describe hers.

I will not leave Han solo. But I'm mainly doing it to prevent the killing ♣ lead.

Also tempted to splinter in ♣ or ♠ but only if it's midnights.