[the hog]

If you play sjs, then 2S looks obvious. If not, I wpould bid 1S on this hand. I think j2nt is a big mistake as unless your follow ups are really well defined, you will not gain much. j2nt should be reserved for more balanced hands imo.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-26, 13:29, said:

I would be shocked if anyone played it as anything else, but in that very hypothetical case...

...I am simply blown away by the stringent logic being applied here.

Does anyone recall this hand from November of last year:
Partner opens 1H and you hold:
A K J 10 8
A 10 5 2
6
J 9 2

Look familiar?

The thread title was:
Splinter or Jacoby 2NT? Pick your poison ... by masse24

http://www.bridgebas...-or-jacoby-2nt/

The 1H - 2Sjump was also discussed.

ArtK78 quoted from a Steve Robinson article ( listed by peachy ):
"When you use Jacoby 2NT, you want to become the captain. When you splinter you want opener to become the captain. In other words, you Jacoby 2NT when you want to learn about opener’s hand. You splinter when you want opener to learn about your hand."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Edit: Unfortunately, like so many of these threads, the OP never did post the parent hand to see what would have worked best .

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2011-June-26, 16:30

[jillybean]

whereagles, on 2011-June-26, 13:57, said:

Thing is, you don't have to show anything. Just look at your hand: you know everything you need to know. It's time to make decisions, not descriptions. As a rule, you should not be doing descriptive bids if you can take charge. This seems to be the case here.

Now add the rest of my comment "I'm not going to cloud the auction by showing my spades first."
I don't see a good reason to misdescribe my hand and after not starting with a 4 card spade heart raise it could be difficult to persuade partner that I have this hand. I like to keep him in the loop, not in the dark.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Mbodell, on 2011-June-26, 14:48, said:

A very likely rebid from partner over 1♠ is 2♦. I'm not sure how you propose to RKC in hearts after that.

Good point.

[MrAce]

2♠ is unfortunately not available for me since we play it 9-11 6 cards nat and invitation. Having said that, i'd start with 1♠ but i can't say i have disagreements with other replies.

One thing about 4 card fit+ natural sjs bids, i LOVE it, and we use it by passed hand and or in competition, however it just never comes, and when it does, it doesn't make an "OMG" effect on the result. When i play something that comes very rare, i expect it to make a huge difference in the decision. I may have had unlucky frequency experience with it perhaps, idk.

[Phil]

2N.

[jmcw]

Mbodell, on 2011-June-26, 14:48, said:

A very likely rebid from partner over 1♠ is 2♦. I'm not sure how you propose to RKC in hearts after that.

A 2♦ rebid solves my "black" suit problem for 0 losers.

I will GF with 3♣ now.

[Flem72]

My preferred sstructure would start 3C, Bergen weak raise concealing a big splinter, 13+ HCP. O's rebid tells the values tale: If 3H (min), then 4D completes the splinter description, requesting cues (unfortunate that the suit we wonder about is C: none will be forthcoming, so R will have to start with 4S hoping to hear 5C, Roman style). If 3D (inv), asking range, then 3N = D splinter. If 4H (the nuts--or a long H suit, shape), RKCB for a grand.

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA

[MrAce]

jmcw, on 2011-June-26, 17:30, said:

A 2♦ rebid solves my "black" suit problem for 0 losers.

I will GF with 3♣ now.

But he did not say 2♦ will create problems in solving losers, he asked how will u set ♥ as trumps and ask RKCB later.

You bid 3♣, ok, pd bids 3NT or 3♠ or 4♦. Now what ? You have everything ready for a good date with a hot chick who is waiting u, except u dunno how to reach her because u lost her number.

If u dont have 3♥ over 2♦ as forcing available, or any other bid in your pdship that shows an immediate ♥ forcing hand, maybe starting 1♠ is not as good as it sounds.

[jogs]

MrAce, on 2011-June-26, 16:13, said:

2♠ is unfortunately not available for me since we play it 9-11 6 cards nat and invitation. Having said that, i'd start with 1♠ but i can't say i have disagreements with other replies.
.

You should consider only playing 2♠ that way after a minor suit opening.

1♥ - 2♠ is spades/hearts, strong spades, or notrump hand with spades. Think this is semi-standard with better players playing SAYC or 2/1. 3 way bid to be clarified in the next round.

[daveharty]

MrAce, on 2011-June-26, 17:43, said:

...maybe starting 1♠ is not as good as it sounds.

Right on. It seems like the "space savings" of 1S vs. 2NT are most illusory, since your second turn is likely to be spent on a noninformative bid to establish a game force, and you won't be supporting hearts until your third turn. Agree with mtvesuvius that WE are the captain of this auction, and we just need to extract the correct information from partner to set the contract; but if this is the case, why would we bother introducing spades naturally? It's not as if that's going to help partner reevaluate his hand later in the auction, which is a primary reason to introduce Strain B into an auction when we already know we're playing in Strain A. Several people have mentioned that it would be reasonable to immediately ask for keycards (I agree), but J2NT is clearly better than that because we don't give up our ability to ask, plus we have the chance of finding out something immediately useful (as long as your followups are well-defined, as The Hog mentioned).

[MrAce]

jogs, on 2011-June-26, 17:46, said:

You should consider only playing 2♠ that way after a minor suit opening.

1♥ - 2♠ is spades/hearts, strong spades, or notrump hand with spades. Think this is semi-standard with better players playing SAYC or 2/1. 3 way bid to be clarified in the next round.

No thank you. Those so called better players are playing this lately while i am playing 9-11 for almost 30 years.

Fit showing jump shifts were invented for a reason, and that was for better judgement in competitive auctions. Not in auctions where u will draw the map of your hand and give it to opponents if what u end up will be just game. Of course i am sure u will advocate fsj with this monster hand as well as an 8 hcp and in order to contrast them, u will add some relays into it...No but thank you for the offer anyway.

[mike777]

2nt bergen here but in any case asking pard to describe hand

[TWO4BRIDGE]

rduran1216, on 2011-June-26, 01:30, said:

MP all red

---

Folks ( including me ) have mentioned 2NT! as Jacoby .
What if 2S! is used as "Jacoby" ( and says nothing about Spades )?
What are the follow-ups ?

I saw one method [ by FromageGB in my thread from last December --- http://www.bridgebas...nt/page__st__20 ) starting as follows:

1H - 2S!
??
.. 2NT! = I have no shortage, do you ? ( I thought this was interesting ) .
.. 3C! = ♣ shortage
.. 3D! = ♦ shortage
.. 3H! = ♠ shortage

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2011-June-27, 09:13

[Onedown]

jillybean, on 2011-June-26, 08:40, said:

My first concern is to show partner I have 4 card support and a gf hand. I'm not going to cloud the auction by showing my spades first.
As others have said the hand is too good for a splinter so I'll happily bid (modified) J2N.

Agree with 2NT for a few reasons. I am more interested in finding out about partners hand than giving information away about my own hand. Why would I tell the opps what NOT to lead, and bidding a ♠ just might do that.

Once I hear partners response to 2NT I will have a much better picture of where we are going. The only problem I may have is whether to bid on if partner bids 4♥over my 2NT bid, and I doubt he will be bidding 3♣or 3 ♦

And yes, this hand is much too good for a splinter...

[han]

2C. I'm too strong to describe my hand, I'm going to give partner room to describe hers.

[Free]

I'll start with 2♣, the hand is too strong to splinter immediately, so depending on agreements you can use some GF bid with or without fit. I don't play Jacoby 2NT, so I only have 2♣ GF relay left. I don't like 1♠ because I can control the auction a lot better after 1♥-2♣ than after 1♥-1♠.

[whereagles]

jillybean, on 2011-June-26, 16:12, said:

Now add the rest of my comment "I'm not going to cloud the auction by showing my spades first."
I don't see a good reason to misdescribe my hand and after not starting with a 4 card spade raise it could be difficult to persuade partner that I have this hand. I like to keep him in the loop, not in the dark.

You are reasoning it the wrong way. Your hand is so independant that your duties are to either make a decision right away (4NT) or gather information (by bidding 2NT or 1♠ or whatnot) to later on make a decision.

It's an error to try and pass the decision-making to partner when you can do that yourself. It is also wrong to make decisions when one should be describing one's hand instead. That is, however, all very human (people tend to have dominant/dominated personalities) but in bridge this is, in fact, the #1 source of mix-ups in natural bidding systems.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

jillybean, on 2011-June-26, 16:12, said:

Now add the rest of my comment "I'm not going to cloud the auction by showing my spades first."
I don't see a good reason to misdescribe my hand and after not starting with a 4 card spade raise it could be difficult to persuade partner that I have this hand. I like to keep him in the loop, not in the dark.

I think Jilly meant: "... and after NOT starting with a 4 card HEART raise..."

[jillybean]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-June-27, 09:09, said:

I think Jilly meant: "... and after NOT starting with a 4 card HEART raise..."

yes, thanks ♥