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Kickback convention misunderstanding

#1 User is offline   A2003 

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Posted 2011-March-22, 17:59



Click on board 24 bid. To view bids, click next.
To see other table, click on navigate, other table, click next.
Both Tables bid 7 with Atrump missing.

What went wrong in the bidding system?
Is it a problem with Kickback convention?
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#2 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2011-March-22, 18:07

The ace asker in each case knew there was a key card missing but chose to act again above five of the trump suit. Presumably they were hoping to reach 6NT instead of 6 as it was a close match. Both partners assumed that all the key cards had been confirmed and bid grand because they had extras. I don't think it is anything to do with kickback.
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#3 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2011-March-22, 19:22

btw 4d by delmonte is not the kickback convention.


As far as I can tell 4h was not kickback in the other room either since it is not alerted and 5d would not be the correct response but hard to tell.....

In addition it is extremely rare for a hand with a void to bid kickback.
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#4 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2011-March-22, 19:46

View Postmike777, on 2011-March-22, 19:22, said:

As far as I can tell 4h was not kickback in the other room either since it is not alerted…

ACBL regs - it wouldn't be alerted until after the final pass. I gather there was no alert then, either?
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#5 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2011-March-22, 19:50

View Postblackshoe, on 2011-March-22, 19:46, said:

ACBL regs - it wouldn't be alerted until after the final pass. I gather there was no alert then, either?



I only note when I click on the hands, 4h and the 5d response were not alerted and 5d would not be the standard/correct response in kickback.

In addition it is very rare for a hand with a void to bid kickback.


Now if in real life they were alerted; I do not know. :)
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#6 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-March-23, 07:00

In the first one ( Delmonte ), 4D-jump = Minorwood.

The reply with 2+void somewhere is 5D!

If 5NT asked for Trump honors, doesn't the 6C reply = zero ??
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#7 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2011-March-23, 07:21

I noticed the following:

dburn said:

with an odd number of voids, you need a 13-card suit
This is incorrect, 1 is an odd number, so we don't need a 13-card suit if we have an odd number of voids. <_<

I don't understand why Cheek didn't Dbl 7. What are his opps going to do? If they bid 7NT like algraves suggests, then W can Dbl again showing that he has the Ace of trumps (no lightner Dbl)...
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#8 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-March-23, 10:13

View Postnigel_k, on 2011-March-22, 18:07, said:

The ace asker in each case knew there was a key card missing but chose to act again above five of the trump suit. Presumably they were hoping to reach 6NT instead of 6 as it was a close match. Both partners assumed that all the key cards had been confirmed and bid grand because they had extras. I don't think it is anything to do with kickback.

That seems very unlikely to me.

Weinstein and Levin have been playing together for about a decade. They must have discussed whether bidding above five of the trump suit promises all the key cards.

It's just about possible that Bakhshi-Delmonte, as a newish partnership, had omitted to discuss this, but I can't believe that Delmonte would risk doing this without discussion, knowing that there was a high risk of it's being misinterpreted.

I think that in both auctions a wheel had come off earlier.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#9 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2011-March-23, 11:18

View PostFree, on 2011-March-23, 07:21, said:

I noticed the following:
This is incorrect, 1 is an odd number, so we don't need a 13-card suit if we have an odd number of voids. <_<

I don't understand why Cheek didn't Dbl 7. What are his opps going to do? If they bid 7NT like algraves suggests, then W can Dbl again showing that he has the Ace of trumps (no lightner Dbl)...


Are you sure he'll have one to lead? The odds of both tables bidding this grand are a priori very remote. He should trust his teammates not to bid a grand off an ace and take his +50 imo.
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#10 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2011-March-25, 16:57

My guess in the Levin/Weinstein auction (and this is definitely a guess) is that when North bid 4C, South thought that North had denied the ace of spades.
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#11 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-March-25, 17:09

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2011-March-25, 16:57, said:

My guess in the Levin/Weinstein auction (and this is definitely a guess) is that when North bid 4C, South thought that North had denied the ace of spades.


Yes, that's correct - see bridgewinners.com for a discussion by the players themselves.

In the other auction, no wheel had come off, but Delmonte thought that after his 6 Bakhshi would cue-bid his void rather than jumping to seven, so opposite a spade void he could stop in 6NT. So I was right about one auction, and Nigel was right about the other.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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