[wyman]

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Feel free to assign 50/50, 75/25, hell 90/80 or whatever you want.

[awm]

I blame North.

North's hand is not an intermediate two. I'd open 4♠ on that hand, in fact. The seventh spade, extra controls, etc make this hand a lot better than the intermediate bid.

It may be worth asking, does this partnership always play intermediate twos, or just in 4th? My opinion is that a lot of people try to play intermediate only in 4th, and that this is a bad approach. The issue is that they do not get a good feel for what qualifies as an intermediate two (see North's bidding here) because the method simply does not come up enough when played only after three passes. They also probably aren't taking best advantage of the negative inferences in other auctions due to the lack of an intermediate two (again due to lack of experience).

[wyman]

Only in 4th. Your criticism is well-taken. For a pair that does not wish to play intermediate 2's in all 4 hands, do you have a recommendation for how to treat 2s in 4th? Or are you recommending that N/S play intermediate 2's always? or ...?

[nigel_k]

Have a rule that is relative to what you normally play, e.g. in 4th seat the range is 3HCP greater than in 1st.

On the actual hand, 3♥ should be constructive, not trying to compete in a different suit that you couldn't open with. Therefore North should just bid 4♠ over 3♥ though I agree with Adam it is too strong for 2♠ in the first place.

[pooltuna]

your partner should make a 2 card limit raise to 3♠ but you are too strong for an intermediate 2....how about an intermediate 3♠ call. Just because these calls don't come up often doesn't mean you should turn your brain off like some seem to be advocating. The possiblities are quite extensive. I.e. if 2♠ shows an intermediate call with 6♠ what does a 1♠ call that rebids 2♠ show?

[mike777]

north 100% open Swan 4s.

dont really like 3h or 3s by south.

[mtvesuvius]

I usually play that 2M in 4th seat is a hand that would reject an Invitation after 1M-1N (or 2x)-2M-3M. This hand is a good hand for a 4♠ opening though.

[han]

Do not confuse this with a system issue, it is a hand evaluation issue.

[Free]

mike777, on 2011-February-08, 20:34, said:

north 100% open Swan 4s.

swan = 4-1-1-7 exactly

[gwnn]

170% N
10% S (3♥ looks a little bit weird with only five)

[wyman]

gwnn, on 2011-February-09, 08:03, said:

170% N
10% S (3♥ looks a little bit weird with only five)

this is what i like to see

But seriously, thx for the comments.

What would you bid as South? I was south and thought that we had essentially 0 chance of bidding a game if I bid 3S. At least with 3H I showed values, so with hearts or a self-sufficient suit, P might be able to bid game. If he raises hearts (with 2 or 3, whatever), I'll correct to 4S (since I can't tell). I thought 3♥ was in some way the least lie, though I felt bad not raising. But maybe I'm off my rocker; God knows I've been wrong before...

[ArtK78]

I would open 4♠ on the North hand.

To me, a 4th seat 2 bid is a hand that would open 1 and rebid 2. The North hand is much too good for that.

Opposite one of my 4th seat 2 bids I would pass the South hand.

100% North.

Anything South did after the 2♠ opening bid to keep the bidding open just gave North another opportunity to bid 4♠, which he did not do. I cannot assign any blame to South for failing to bid North's cards.

[Free]

North is a chicken, not a swan (4=1=1=7).

[awm]

My recommendation is to play weak twos in all seats. In fourth, my definition for a 2♠ bid is that your hand is too strong to pass it out, but you don't expect to make game unless partner has some great fit for spades. The point range for me is something like 8-12, but the main idea is that you don't have to worry about whether to invite/accept holding a non-fitting hand (which can be awkward especially if you haven't a lot of practice with these bids).

[bluecalm]

I agree with everything awm said in this thread.
I think opening problem would be more interesting in 4th seat at matchpoints (as you really don't want to go minus with big misfits) but in 3rd seats and hand that strong 4♠ is no brainer.
100% N. he had a chance to correct himself after hearing positive bid by partner.

[the hog]

Agree, that Swans should be opened at the 4 level.

[BunnyGo]

the hog, on 2011-February-09, 18:08, said:

Agree, that Swans should be opened at the 4 level.

Where does the name "swan" come from?

[aguahombre]

BunnyGo, on 2011-February-09, 20:19, said:

Where does the name "swan" come from?

the name comes from the way it looks: skinny neck between head and body. supposed to be 4-1-1-7, not seven spades, but u get the idea.

A true swan negates the allure of a 4-level opening.