[inquiry]

whereagles, on Sep 1 2004, 04:57 AM, said:

Whether or not the control is shortness or the ace is not clear.. and I find it very abusive to consider a player's personal interpretation of this cuebid as a "mark of true expertise". I bet if you give this hand to 100 world class players, you would get at least 30% disagreement (one way or the other, mind you).

Ligthen up Whereagles.. this was meant as part of an ongong joke I was having with paulher. It seems he was called a begninner by someone (he is not a beginner), and when he solved a tricky play problem, I emailed him a "congradulation" type thing for making an expert play. He followed that up by not making the bid I would make, so I was playing off that private communication with the joke... I even put an smiley face on my remar, clearly indicating the joking nature of the my comment...and noted that different people bid differently

Quote

So this maybe a good "expert" bidding quiz.... and in my opinion iif you say that the bid shows short hearts, you are NOT an expert bidder. :-) Yes, I realize different people bid idfferently.

I followed this up in the next post, again extendig the joke, and again using smiley face to show that it is joke, and this time MAKING IT clearer I am having fun with this thread... when I said....

Quote

And as far as waiting for the hand the gold star had, let me preempt it. If he had a hand like the ones I propose, then it is obvious this is how an expert bids. And if he had some silly hand with a heart void, then, well, not all gold stars are good players.. :-)

The fact that the "expert" gold star had a hand almost identical to ones I was predicting may surprise a lot of people....and most are not accepting the "expert" bid it right. Fine, I know I don't bid like most people, and maybe a true expert will bid what their partners expect them to bid rather than what might be the technically correct bid. But I can't imagine a hand with heart shortness and weakness (thus the 3D bid), that GETS BETTER when partner suggest HEART values. And even if I had such a hand, the bid I would make would not be 4H, but rather one of my other suits... pulling NT and trying for slam in minor, suggesting strongly (promising) heart shortness, and good controls in the black suits. And save 4H to show the kind of hand the "pro" had.

Most people should Ignore my advice on how to bid this hand, because as this thread shows, the majority of people will not interpret 4H to mean what I think it should mean, so if you bid it that way, you will confuse your partner. But with a person who thinks along the same lines I do, 4H is a great descrpitve bid that allows you to describe your hand accurately.

Ben

[whereagles]

inquiry, on Sep 1 2004, 01:34 PM, said:

this was meant as part of an ongong joke I was having with paulher.

Oh.. Sorry. I misunderstood the context

[paulhar]

This hand brings up some interesting points. Let me compare to a hand pointed out by Jeff Rubens in 1969 (!) in The Secrets to Winning Bridge.

xxx
ATx
KQJx
Jxx

AJ
KQJxx
Axxx
Ax

The auction went 1H-3H-4D-6D. The point was that 4D was not only a cue-bid, but it showed diamonds, which allowed Jeff & partner to reach the superior slam.

Back to the current hand.

(1H) 2D (P) 2H
(P) 3D (P) 3NT

You've cuebid and now that partner shows a hand that doesn't want to be in game opposite a limit raise, you've bid game. Because your partner is in such a tight range, your 3NT could be anything from a bare opening hand to a hand that could make slam opposite a decent opening hand.

Your acceptance has perked partner up. 4H is clearly a slam try of some sort, catering to you having the top of your range. It must be shapely, since 5D is strongly suggested as a final contract.

The question is, what kind of slam try is it?

Ben suggest, a la Rubens, that 4H shows length in hearts. Certainly a reasonable agreement to have with partner.

Quote

AK
5
9876542
AT6

With this hand, you would cue-bid 4clubs, not bid 4♥,

I'm guessing it's the club 'length' more than the ace that this conclusion is based on, if he's using the above theory.

Unfortunately, as sensible as this agreement is, it's not common and undiscussed, I wouldn't assume it was being used. Maybe Phil on the actual hand, not near the top of his 'range' should have subsided in 5D (I admittedly constructed a hand that 6D would make on ) but the next time a different expert bids this way, I'm still not sure what I would expect!

[paulhar]

whereagles, on Sep 1 2004, 03:57 AM, said:

For those who like imaginative bidding, here's a nice way to bid the hands:

(1H) 2D pass 2NT!!
pass 3D pass 3NT!!

The reasoning is simple: looking at AKQx of diamonds, you fear pard will pull out a direct 3NT to 4D. So you give him a chance to pull out a NT bid at a lower level. Now he hears 3NT and can pass with ease because he has already shown weakish and long diamonds!

Brilliant, don't you think?

That's a good way to play 2NT cold for a game. 2NT doesn't show a diamond fit so partner might pass with his crummy diamonds hoping that the tricks will come from other suits.

[whereagles]

I guess you don't like imaginative bidding

Depends on who pard is. If he's the sort of player who doesn't like to rescue pard, then my tactics is risky. But if he's like the guy who pulled 3NT to 4H, why not?

[Free]

I'm getting really curious what the bid really meant... Can we get some full hands plz?

[inquiry]

Free, on Sep 1 2004, 11:04 AM, said:

I'm getting really curious what the bid really meant... Can we get some full hands plz?

The hand and the sad tale of the result of this hand has been posted.. see...

this pclayton post

Of course, I would probalby not bother to show you this link to what the 4♥ bidder actually held if it wasn't close to card-for-card what I predicted... :-)

Ben

[luke warm]

the rubens hand is interesting, but note when it was published.. nowadays i think most would take a bid at the 4 level (after a major suit fit is found) as 1st or 2nd round control, with or w/out a suit

i guess it depends on p'ship agreement and on whether or not you're in a game forcing auction

[paulhar]

luke warm, on Sep 1 2004, 06:06 PM, said:

the rubens hand is interesting, but note when it was published.. nowadays i think most would take a bid at the 4 level (after a major suit fit is found) as 1st or 2nd round control, with or w/out a suit

i guess it depends on p'ship agreement and on whether or not you're in a game forcing auction

most people played it that way then too but J.R's point was that it was more valuable to show distribution than controls opposite such a limited bid