[pclayton]

Playing with a very good 'star' in a team game - this one deserves it (for a change!!) .

1.

(1♥) - 2♦ - (pass) - 2♥
(Pass) - 3♦ - (pass) - 3N
(Pass) - 4♥.

What kind of hand do you expect for 4♥?

2.

♠KQJxx ♥Kx ♦x ♣AQJTx

2♦ - (2♥) - 2♠ - (pass)
2N - (Pass) - 3N - (pass)
Pass (dbl) - ?

Do you agree with the auction so far? Do you pull 3N?
Side Q's:
In your partnership:

A. Is a 2♠ a non-jump fit?
B. What is a 3♥ call directly over 2♥?
C. Is a redouble here business, or does it show doubt?

Thanks.

[Free]

1) since p has an intermediate hand (no dbl, no jump), I suspect he's stiff ♥ and sees slam if you have the Ace. It's quite an unusual bid, so I could be totally wrong

2 Do I agree? A little. If you start bidding 2♠, then the rest seems ok, but I'd rather go for an immediate 3♥.

A ) I play it natural, and half forcing after the intervention
B ) I'd consider it as eiter invitational in ♦ or 55+ in the blacks. Opener has to respond as if it's the blacks first, it will turn out later what 3♥ was exactly.
C ) I don't like RDbl's at game-level in such bidding as business. I'd rather consider it as doubt, semi-SOS

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Aug 30 2004, 11:59 AM, said:

1.
(1♥) - 2♦ - (pass) - 2♥
(Pass) - 3♦ - (pass) - 3N
(Pass) - 4♥.

What kind of hand do you expect for 4♥?

Thanks.

4♥ is "impossible" bid. That is, with me, 2♥ is good raise or (maybe better). So 3♦ was, opposite a "good but non-forcing" riase, I want to play 3♦. Now the 2♥ bidder comes out of the woodwork and shows game forcing values, but does not promise anything more than that.

So why is 4♥ impossible? It is impossible because with a hand that would want to force now, I would bid something more than 3♦ last time. An impossible bid doesn't mean it can't happen of course. Playing in "think with fred" I bid an impossible 4♥ on this auction.. 1D-1S-1NT-2H-4H.. because my hand increased tremendously in value after hearing 4H. The same has happened here. Your parnter devaluated his heart holding but when he bid 3♦, now he imagines greater things. He may have heart AJx(x) or ATx(x) and broken diamonds. I also suspect a black suit shortness, maybe void, but certainly singleton. A heart void didn't get him excited with your 3NT bid for sure.

Quote

2.
♠KQJxx ♥Kx ♦x ♣AQJTx

2♦ - (2♥) - 2♠ - (pass)
2N - (Pass) - 3N - (pass)
Pass (dbl) - ?

Do you agree with the auction so far? Do you pull 3N?
Side Q's:
In your partnership:

A. Is a 2♠ a non-jump fit?
B. What is a 3♥ call directly over 2♥?
C. Is a redouble here business, or does it show doubt?

Do I agree with auction? Sure. Assuming 2diamonds was weak 2 in diamonds. Do I pull 3NT? This is a deeper question. The heart king is a card partner could not expect. Two spades was forcing, and partner was under the gun. I suspect he probably has something like Qxx in hearts. Before I answer that question (pull or not), let's deal with side issues.

1) is 2♠ a nonjump fit? Absolutely not. It is spades and forcing
2) What is a 3♥ call direclty over 2♥? Do you have a ♥ stopper
3) Is a redbouble business or show doubt? Without prior agreement with your partner, redouble is business.


Now to what to do. We have 16 hcp, our partner around 8 to 10 (vul would be helpful to know), let's say average of 9. That gives us 25 or so hcp. Partner as we know, has at least heart Qxx for his brave 2NT bid, so what does our rho have? AJ long in hearts, probably spade ace, and we can assume some kind of diamond cards. Can partner have at worse something like S=x H=Qxx D-AQxxxx C-xxx (his diamonds might be KQ instead). Wtih this hand you have reasonsable shot at 3NT. Win ♥K, give a spade to ace... if they continue hearts, you play on two club hooks and come home when king club is no more than 3 on side with 5C, 2S, 2H, 1D... if they abandon hearts, you can hope club hook is "on" and just give a club to EAST.. winning 4C, 2S, 1H. DA. and planning on ENDPLAY overcaller in one red suit for a pick up of an extra trick in the other red suit.

So I would pass the double and hope partner has something reasonable, with doubler with all the reamining cards.

Ben

[laughter]

1) I think a good pard should not make a non-systemic bid like this one. If he has, then it must be logical with common meanings:
a. He doesn't like to play 3NT, yet he tries to sign off after 2H (assuming the cue bid doen't promise rebid).
b. Following a; his hand should be limited in strength (therefore a sign off), and highly distributional (therefore pulling 3NT).
c. Following b; Then he is trying to pinpoint some important features of his hand.
d. Is it a heart void? A good argument against it has been posted by Ben (void may not be useful opposite advancer's heart values) . Yet I don't think pard can be short in black suit. If he is in the mood of trying somethings ingenius, can't he bid his short suit at 4 levels? I would not take 4S as natural (having bypassed 2S after cuebid), 4C natural also makes little sense (same reason, his 3D rebid is space consuming and should not have 2nd suit).
I would interpret 4H as a cue bid showing H control, (I can't be much wrong here).
I guess it is void (Ben's argument is sensible, but we all know that those scientific bidders like to bid out their shape even to their disadvantage)

2) Just depends on the meaning of 2S.
If it is fit non jump, then I object to the bidding (pard will bury you in D).
If it is F and Nat, the bidding is very sensible.

Pulling 3NT with a useful HK (as stop) and solid values for game needs sound justification. I would redouble here, assuring pard that 3NT is a good spot.

As for the side question, I have no regular partnership, therefore I can just give my own view:
1) Fit Non Jump is useful only when you don't need the bid natural. Imo, if a bid can be natural, then it should be interpreted as natural. Here, playing FNJ will make describing your hand much more difficult. So my view is NO! Definitely NOT a FNJ!

2) Cue bidding in opponent suit is a way to show offensive values with no clear bid. Since you can force with new suit, it shows either a hand that have great diamond support (Cuebidding first, supporting D next to create a force) OR an attempt to get to 3NT.

3) Most experts play that when the opponents double your contract for penalty, a pass in direct seat shows doubt, allowing a runout, and redouble shows assurance. In passout seat (partner has passed to show some doubt), of course you can't play pass showing doubt as it is final, therefore redouble shows doubt and pass is to play. To sum up, redouble is to play in direct seat, semi-SOS in passout seat.
*Imo, this 'pass-redouble' manuver is a way to win in post-moderm, you'd better run if you really hate to land in the doubled contract.

Sorry I can't use the "Quote" function properly. Otherwise, the message will be more readable.

[paulhar]

1. I think partner has long bad diamonds that he thinks aren't good enough to run in 3NT and heart shortness. "Knowing" that you'll work this out, it's possible that if with "good" diamonds and aces and kings, you might have a slam.

I can't believe anybody would ever make this bid with me

2a. I would think that 2S is still a one-round force.
2b. My (regular!) partnership has no agreement - we play twice a year if lucky and most likely any such agreement would be forgotton
2c. I think it's for business. Even though this sounds silly at matchpoints, if your 3NT is quite heavy, 3NTxx+2 beats 6D.

[inquiry]

paulhar, on Aug 30 2004, 09:22 PM, said:

1.  I think partner has long bad diamonds that he thinks aren't good enough to run in 3NT and heart shortness.  "Knowing" that you'll work this out, it's possible that if with "good" diamonds and aces and kings, you might have a slam.

Long bad diamonds, heart shortness, fear of 3NT.. you kinow what the correct bid is? It is pass, or 4♦. Note, some people play if you bid 4♦ here over 3NT it is not weakness, but rather a slam try... in which case, the correct bid iwth the hand you described is pass, not 4D or 4H.

An impossible bid is impossible because it is a hand that can not be expected. Heart shorness is to be expected given the bidding. So this maybe a good "expert" bidding quiz.... and in my opinion iif you say that the bid shows short hearts, you are NOT an expert bidder. :-) Yes, I realize different people bid idfferently.

Ben

[EricK]

1) The only hand I can think of for the 4♥ bid is solid ♦ and the singleton ♥A or ♥K.

That is the only minimum hand which has chances for a ♦ slam and feels safe in 4NT.

2) 2♠ is not a FNJ in my opinion.
3♥ would ask partner to bid 3NT with a stop
Redouble is business. How is partner supposed to know what your doubt is in this case? SOS redoubles are only of much use earlier in the auction, before you have had a chance to exchange information.

If you have doubts about 3NT, you should have bid 3♣ on the previous round. Now if partner retreats to 3♦ and you bid 3NT, he will know that your weakness is in ♦.

Eric

[whereagles]

1. If pard is an overbidder I expect

Ax x QJTxxx Kxxx

If he's an underbidder..

Axx -- QJTxxx Kxxx
Ax x QJTxxxx Kxx


2. I pull out the double to 4C. Sure, 3NT might make if pard has an entry or two, but, given the double, I don't think he'll have those. I would consider sticking to 3NT if I need points of if RHO is a light-feather doubler.

[paulhar]

inquiry, on Aug 30 2004, 10:50 PM, said:

paulhar, on Aug 30 2004, 09:22 PM, said:

1.  I think partner has long bad diamonds that he thinks aren't good enough to run in 3NT and heart shortness.  "Knowing" that you'll work this out, it's possible that if with "good" diamonds and aces and kings, you might have a slam.

Long bad diamonds, heart shortness, fear of 3NT.. you kinow what the correct bid is? It is pass, or 4♦. Note, some people play if you bid 4♦ here over 3NT it is not weakness, but rather a slam try... in which case, the correct bid iwth the hand you described is pass, not 4D or 4H.

Did I say it wasn't a slam try?

Partner has long bad diamonds but a good enough hand to make 5D opposite a hand that wants to force to game. When partner bid 3D, he assumed you had an invitational hand, and he only wanted to play.

Sometimes you happen to hold a hand that would play superbly opposite a hand with long bad diamonds but enough strength to bid 5D opposite a game-forcing raise. If you hold that hand, by all means, bid six. That's why partner bid 4H instead of just bidding 5D.

If partner thinks that 3NT isn't making but 5D might on the back of his long diamond suit, then clearly both 4D and pass are wrong from his point of view.

Partner can't go far wrong if you misinterpret 4H since most of the time you'll just bid five diamonds. In any event, you won't pass 4H, and a lot of the time you bid 6D, you'll belong there.

Quote

So this maybe a good "expert" bidding quiz.... and in my opinion iif you say that the bid shows short hearts, you are NOT an expert bidder. :-)

Most of my partners will heartily agree with that

It will be interesting to see what the star player really meant by 4H though...

[inquiry]

paulhar, on Aug 31 2004, 01:41 PM, said:

Quote

So this maybe a good "expert" bidding quiz.... and in my opinion iif you say that the bid shows short hearts, you are NOT an expert bidder. :-)

Most of my partners will heartily agree with that

It will be interesting to see what the star player really meant by 4H though...

Well.. here is a challenge to you. Draw up a hand with short hearts that you would bid only 3♦ in response to 2♥ cue-bid, and then would feel empowered to try for slam opposite a 3NT bid. Two or three example hands would be nice.

The only reason partner bidding 3NT can make your hand "stronger" (remember you tried to sign off) was that you have hearts. And if you ahve hearts, why didn't you bid an inviting 2NT at first? Because you are very short in a black suit, again, probably void. Once could imagine a hand like....

S-AQx H-AT9x D-KJTxxx C-void, althought that one is probably too good. As you well might have bid 3♥ last round. So you will need to weaken perhaps spades or diamonds a bit. Also, the void could be in spades, but that is less likely because the opponents find a way to bid the master suit when they have it, adn we know parnter is not long in spades...

So perhaps more realistic is...

S-AJx H-AJxx D-QJxxxx C-void

And as far as waiting for the hand the gold star had, let me preempt it. If he had a hand like the ones I propose, then it is obvious this is how an expert bids. And if he had some silly hand with a heart void, then, well, not all gold stars are good players.. :-)

I can see that I am terrifically out voted in here.. so far it is me agaiinst the everyone. There are some good bridge player above aruging it is short heart... with maybe ericK being the best of them. So who knows, I am probably all wrong... but if I made that bid, or if my partner made that bid, this is the KIND of hand I would hold and the type I would expect from them.

Ben

[pclayton]

You're gonna love this. He held: ♠AQT ♥A9xx ♦J9xxxx ♣void !

I held: ♠xxx ♥Txx ♦AKQx ♣KJx

Ok - flame away at my 3N call - but I'd say its 90% that we have a heart stop and the other 10% of the time the suit blocks. We had a 10 IMP lead, and 3N looked like the obvious spot, and I wasn't going to risk playing a part score with the other table being there. 3♥ is the technically correct call, but...

4♥ just astounds me. Why disturb 3N on this layout? I know if you exchange the black suits, 3N is a joke. But to pull 3N is bad bridge.

Over 4♥, I - understandably or not, put him in 6♦. I put him on J7th or even J8th of diamonds, with the A♥, a side void and an outside card or 2. 3♦ doesn't look like a poor call on this - if pard doesn't fit diamonds - where is the hand going? If he held the presumed hand with extra long diamonds, from his side, 3N confirmed a trick source in diamonds, and I have more sympathy for a 4♥ cue bid.

He can almost wrap 6♦ on the club 9 lead, Q, ruff. The heart bidder had: Kx, KJxxx, xx, AQxx. Have some fun trying, but I think all roads lead to -1.

On the first hand, he held: x, Qxx, AJxxxx, xxx - and the diamond spots were really x's. The club king was off, so 3N gets hammered. I think 2N is a pretty bad overbid.

Thank you for agreeing that 3N is the correct call here and not 3♣ over 2N.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Aug 31 2004, 02:03 PM, said:

You're gonna love this. He held: ♠AQT ♥A9xx ♦J9xxxx ♣void !

I held: ♠xxx ♥Txx ♦AKQx ♣KJx

Ok - flame away at my 3N call - but I'd say its 90% that we have a heart stop and the other 10% of the time the suit blocks. We had a 10 IMP lead, and 3N looked like the obvious spot, and I wasn't going to risk playing a part score with the other table being there. 3♥ is the technically correct call, but...

Burner's on.....

What is wrong with 3♥ by you over 3♦? It describes your hand and looks for a heart stopper for NT. Your partner will bid 3NT and all will be right with the world.

Burner's off...

On the plus side, I had the hand jsut about right. I think your parnter's hearts have to be better than A9xx, but ok. Let's imagine that you actually had your bid, giving you, say the heart King instead of teh club king (you know the stopper you promised). What then? 6♦, 3♥, 2♠ and a slow spade ruff for 12 tricks (throwing a spade on the good fourth round heart winner, is a fine result.

It is hard for your partner to bid correctly when you mislead him for no good reason. I happen to think he bid his hand very well, he is a TRUE and OUTSTANDING expert (since he more or less agreed with my analysis of what the bid means). You putting him into 6D was the second mistake. Since you lack a heart stopper, you should have realized that yoru heart stopper for notrump did not improve his hand at all.... since you did not have a heart stopper. You should have realized that your club cards were totally useless opposite partners void... you should have realized that game would now be more than enough, and you should have bid 5Diamonds with your hand. HAd I bid 3NT and had my partner bid 4H, that is what I would have done (see my definition of what 4H bid means on my first reply)....

Sadly, most partners I bid with have no clue how to bid. Even some very good partners... and sadly, even good players fail to learn what bids should mean, based upon bridge logic, because their parnters never bid the right way either.

So I throw down the same challenge to you... find a hand where partner will make this impossible bid with out holding good heart cards.

Ben

[pclayton]

inquiry, on Aug 31 2004, 10:19 AM, said:

pclayton, on Aug 31 2004, 02:03 PM, said:

You're gonna love this. He held: ♠AQT ♥A9xx ♦J9xxxx ♣void !

I held: ♠xxx ♥Txx ♦AKQx ♣KJx

Ok - flame away at my 3N call - but I'd say its 90% that we have a heart stop and the other 10% of the time the suit blocks. We had a 10 IMP lead, and 3N looked like the obvious spot, and I wasn't going to risk playing a part score with the other table being there. 3♥ is the technically correct call, but...

Burner's on.....

What is wrong with 3♥ by you over 3♦? It describes your hand and looks for a heart stopper for NT. Your partner will bid 3NT and all will be right with the world.

Burner's off...

On the plus side, I had the hand jsut about right. I think your parnter's hearts have to be better than A9xx, but ok. Let's imagine that you actually had your bid, giving you, say the heart King instead of teh club king (you know the stopper you promised). What then? 6♦, 3♥, 2♠ and a slow spade ruff for 12 tricks (throwing a spade on the good fourth round heart winner, is a fine result.

It is hard for your partner to bid correctly when you mislead him for no good reason. I happen to think he bid his hand very well, he is a TRUE and OUTSTANDING expert (since he more or less agreed with my analysis of what the bid means). You putting him into 6D was the second mistake. Since you lack a heart stopper, you should have realized that yoru heart stopper for notrump did not improve his hand at all.... since you did not have a heart stopper. You should have realized that your club cards were totally useless opposite partners void... you should have realized that game would now be more than enough, and you should have bid 5Diamonds with your hand. HAd I bid 3NT and had my partner bid 4H, that is what I would have done (see my definition of what 4H bid means on my first reply)....

Sadly, most partners I bid with have no clue how to bid. Even some very good partners... and sadly, even good players fail to learn what bids should mean, based upon bridge logic, because their parnters never bid the right way either.

So I throw down the same challenge to you... find a hand where partner will make this impossible bid with out holding good heart cards.

Ben

Kxx, Kxx, xxx, AKxx.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Aug 31 2004, 02:25 PM, said:

inquiry, on Aug 31 2004, 10:19 AM, said:

So I throw down the same challenge to you... find a hand where partner will make this impossible bid with out holding good heart cards.

Ben

Kxx, Kxx, xxx, AKxx.

I find it hard to believe my partner would overcall 2D much less rebid 3D after my 2H cue-bid with that hand. The challenge was to find a hand where the 3D bidder would now bid 4H.

As an aside, with this new hand you show, I would not cue-bid 2♥. I would bid some number of notrump depending upon my partners' overcall style. And remember, you invited the flames for your 2H followed by 3NT sequence.

Ben

[inquiry]

Oh, and after a club lead, your partenr can still have some play if you club king had been the spade king (same dist), ruff club, diaomnd dummy, ruff club, diamond dummy, ruff club, three round of spades, exit a small heart. If EAST jumps up with King, he sets himself up for hook, if West wins the Queen, he has to give a ruff and sluff, and you trump two hearts in dummy....

Ben

[paulhar]

OK, I'll try.

AK
5
9876542
AT6

When partner cuebids 2H, you respond as if he made a limit raise in diamonds. Can you make game? Probably not, a typical limit raise such as:

Q64
T873
KJ3
KQJ, or

J86
AK3
K103
9842 both will likely go down in 3NT or in 5D.

However, when partner bids a game, you think you have good play for 5D but not necessarily 3NT if partner only has one heart stopper and can't run the diamonds. Even better, if partner has good diamonds, you might be able to pull off a slam, especially if partner's heart stopper is the ace without other heart garbage.

Why, partner might even hold:

Quote

I held: ♠xxx ♥Txx ♦AKQx ♣KJx

and slam depends on finding the queen of clubs, which should be higher than 50% with your opportunity to count the hand (the opponents' relative silence might help too)

More likely though, the hand partner will go on looks something like:
xxx, Axx, AKxx, Kxx, for which the diamond slam will score well despite the presence of 12 tricks in notrump. And isn't this hand an easy 2H cue followed by 3NT over 3D?

[inquiry]

paulhar, on Aug 31 2004, 03:59 PM, said:

OK, I'll try.

AK
5
9876542
AT6

When partner cuebids 2H, you respond as if he made a limit raise in diamonds.  Can you make game?  Probably not, a typical limit raise such as:

Q64
T873
KJ3
KQJ, or

J86
AK3
K103
9842  both will likely go down in 3NT or in 5D.

However, when partner bids a game, you think you have good play for 5D but not necessarily 3NT if partner only has one heart stopper and can't run the diamonds.  Even better, if partner has good diamonds, you might be able to pull off a slam, especially if partner's heart stopper is the ace without other heart garbage.

Why, partner might even hold:

Quote

I held: ♠xxx ♥Txx ♦AKQx ♣KJx

and slam depends on finding the queen of clubs, which should be higher than 50% with your opportunity to count the hand (the opponents' relative silence might help too)

More likely though, the hand partner will go on looks something like:
xxx, Axx, AKxx, Kxx, for which the diamond slam will score well despite the presence of 12 tricks in notrump. And isn't this hand an easy 2H cue followed by 3NT over 3D?

nope...

AK
5
9876542
AT6

With this hand, you would cue-bid 4clubs, not bid 4♥, and if partner held the hand he held, he would bid 4♦.. you then bid 4hearts, he then bids 5Clubs... PERFECt.. now you can bid 6di....
Or you would use whatever passes for RKCB over 3NT

With your partners second hand (heart ace, diamond AK), he will cue-bid 4H and you will do whatever you do to get to slam (4S will work, of course, but if you have blackwood avalable use it)....

Sorry, this isn't the hand.. you need 4♥ to paint the picture....



Ben

[pclayton]

inquiry, on Aug 31 2004, 10:29 AM, said:

pclayton, on Aug 31 2004, 02:25 PM, said:

inquiry, on Aug 31 2004, 10:19 AM, said:

So I throw down the same challenge to you... find a hand where partner will make this impossible bid with out holding good heart cards.

Ben

Kxx, Kxx, xxx, AKxx.

I find it hard to believe my partner would overcall 2D much less rebid 3D after my 2H cue-bid with that hand. The challenge was to find a hand where the 3D bidder would now bid 4H.

As an aside, with this new hand you show, I would not cue-bid 2♥. I would bid some number of notrump depending upon my partners' overcall style. And remember, you invited the flames for your 2H followed by 3NT sequence.

Ben

Let me get this straight.

I hold the AKQx of diamonds and I'm NOT surprised that he rebid 3♦?
I hold the xxx of diamonds and I'm supposed to believe that he WON'T rebid 3♦?

Move a card around if you want, but once my star partner pulls 3N with the example hand we are too high.

Good to know I won't get flamed around here unless I 'invite' it (chuckle).

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Aug 31 2004, 07:28 PM, said:

Let me get this straight.

I hold the AKQx of diamonds and I'm NOT surprised that he rebid 3♦?
I hold the xxx of diamonds and I'm supposed to believe that he WON'T rebid 3♦?

Move a card around if you want, but once my star partner pulls 3N with the example hand we are too high.

Good to know I won't get flamed around here unless I 'invite' it (chuckle).

What you are not getting straight was the challenge, which was to come up with a hand for the DIAMOMD overcaller.. so my first part of my post was making fun of the fact that the hand you created woudl have been very funny for a 2D overcall on a three card suit....

I am always glad to help with request.. anymore flames you want.. just let me know...

Ben

[whereagles]

The following inferences seem to be clear:

1. Weakish and long diamonds. Weakish because he pulled out 3NT, and long because he needs playing strenght to force to the 5-level, as he did.

2. Heart control. Otherwise he might have bid 4D.

Whether or not the control is shortness or the ace is not clear.. and I find it very abusive to consider a player's personal interpretation of this cuebid as a "mark of true expertise". I bet if you give this hand to 100 world class players, you would get at least 30% disagreement (one way or the other, mind you).

Besides, there is one simple negative inference people are forgetting to take: pard didn't bid 3NT over 2D. Therefore he rates not to have good heart stoppers. This actually encourages overcaller to pull out to 4D and to bid 4H on shortness rather than the ace. Why? Because with the ace he might consider pass 3NT on grounds of the side having a double stopper.

For those who like imaginative bidding, here's a nice way to bid the hands:

(1H) 2D pass 2NT!!
pass 3D pass 3NT!!

The reasoning is simple: looking at AKQx of diamonds, you fear pard will pull out a direct 3NT to 4D. So you give him a chance to pull out a NT bid at a lower level. Now he hears 3NT and can pass with ease because he has already shown weakish and long diamonds!

Brilliant, don't you think?