[Siegmund]

Not a forcing pass for either side IMO though I can imagine opener's side having a special agreement about auctions like this.

@rduran: if partner has 1½ or 2 tricks more than he showed and we miss slam as a result, that's on his head, not mine. My partners arent "very likely" to do that to me, though it's not impossible for a leap to 4H to be a bit heavy from time to time.

[whereagles]

I'll bid 5♥ but not happy about it. If I knew opps were up to 6♦, I'd certainly try 5♠.

[rduran1216]

Siegmund, on 2010-December-28, 13:43, said:

Not a forcing pass for either side IMO though I can imagine opener's side having a special agreement about auctions like this.

@rduran: if partner has 1½ or 2 tricks more than he showed and we miss slam as a result, that's on his head, not mine. My partners arent "very likely" to do that to me, though it's not impossible for a leap to 4H to be a bit heavy from time to time.

Are you tellin me with AQ 8th of hearts, u wouldn't bid 4H over 1D?

x
AQxxxxxx
-
Kxxx

or

Qx
AQxxxxxx
-
xxx

or

Jx
A10xxxxxx
-
xxx

6H is a winner over all these types of layouts.

[kayin801]

rduran1216, on 2010-December-28, 15:46, said:

Are you tellin me with AQ 8th of hearts, u wouldn't bid 4H over 1D?

x
AQxxxxxx
-
Kxxx

or

Qx
AQxxxxxx
-
xxx

or

Jx
A10xxxxxx
-
xxx

6H is a winner over all these types of layouts.

Expecting partner to have 2 first round controls for his w/r preempt is kinda insane, not to mention a trump lead could leave partner with an additional club loser or two or an overruff on some of those hands if our suits don't break exactly as we want.

We're at the 5 level, we have no way of exploring whether partner has a good preempt or a bad preempt, and 5♥ gives us a good chance at a really good score.

Opposition are not in a forcing auction, 3rd seat can have 0-15 pts, give or take a few.

[rduran1216]

kayin801, on 2010-December-28, 16:06, said:

Expecting partner to have 2 first round controls for his w/r preempt is kinda insane, not to mention a trump lead could leave partner with an additional club loser or two or an overruff on some of those hands if our suits don't break exactly as we want.

We're at the 5 level, we have no way of exploring whether partner has a good preempt or a bad preempt, and 5♥ gives us a good chance at a really good score.

Opposition are not in a forcing auction, 3rd seat can have 0-15 pts, give or take a few.

holding 4D its impossible to think he has a void in diamonds in this auction?

Holding KJ of hearts, its impossible to think he has the A of hearts for his 4H preempt.

How about

xx
AQxxxxxx
-
xxx

I think its very clear what partner has. and its gonna be hard to find a hand where 6H doesn't have play.

[Phil]

Rduran is making several arbitrary assumptions. While an 8 card suit is possible a 7 card suit is more likely because partner probably has a diamond void and the colors are more attractive for preempting, although there is a style element here. When partner has a 7 card suit we will need a surprise in spades - either the Q or xxx (and the suit splitting 2-2) to make this.

The examples with the 8 hearts and the KC are rather well chosen to say the least.Even a 2704 does not give us a good play since we need 22 trumps to stay in dummy after trump are drawn. A trump lead is not impossible either which may dampen our chances.

In spite of Dburn's comment I would be surprised to get doubled in 5♥ or get the satisfaction of doubling 6♦.

[MrAce]

I bid 5♥, we preempt very agressive at these colors. By the way, if i decided to bid 6♥, i would definetely start with 5♠ first. Pd will be on lead in 6♦.

About the forcing pass auction of ♦ holders. This will be pdship agreement. I play the pass forcing more often than others, in situations like we bid game vulnerable and the preempters pd made a save. I know pd may have bid with a very light hand and other opponent was not coming from pass and all..But so what ? Playing forcing pass more frequent than others cause doubled making contracts by opponents, about 5 imps, but not being able to tell pd our intention, due to not being sure who has the strength, fear, leads to less accurate decisions at high level and costs much more in long run imo.

To me not playing forcing pass in auctions like that, is like betting against ourselves. And i know i am in minority who likes to play the pass by opener here as forcing.

[whereagles]

4♥ is such a random call I wouldn't waste my time guessing what pard has... lol

by the way, where are the babes the topic title was talking about???

[han]

MrAce, on 2010-December-28, 20:13, said:

I bid 5♥, we preempt very agressive at these colors. By the way, if i decided to bid 6♥, i would definetely start with 5♠ first. Pd will be on lead in 6♦.

Unlikely.

[Scoti]

Forcing? .... If anyones P is a GIBiot, Someone will definately end up at 6NT; maybe better swish it. lol

[Siegmund]

Quote

Are you tellin me with AQ 8th of hearts, u wouldn't bid 4H over 1D?

No (though on the hands strong enough to compete to the 5-level on their own, especially with a possible 2nd defensive trick, 1H then 4 or 5 on the next round would cross my mind.)

But at favorable my 4H jumps are going to vastly more often be 3-7-1-2 with HAQ and nothing else, or A9xxxxx in hearts and a stray king somewhere, or Q-8th and another face card. What I said was that the posted example with AQ-8th and the CK was at least 1 1/2 tricks stronger than typical, partner knows I am going to bid on the assumption he has 6 or 6 1/2 tricks, and IF he chooses to bid 4H with an 8-trick hand he has taken a calculated risk that he will cause us to miss a slam by doing it.

Without doing a sim, I expect partner to have an 8-card heart suit maybe 25% of the time (and most of those without the CK.)

[ceeb]

Edit -- sorry dup

[ceeb]

5♥. To make 6♥ partner would need a fine vulnerable 4♥ bid, which is against the odds to hold when bidding 4♥ not vulnerable and is rendered much further unlikely in that it requires a low-hcp construction for the 5♦ bid. More typically 5♥ is already a save with say xx,Q109xxxx,--,QJxx opposite.

[OleBerg]

5♥ wtp?

Re Force: I always make an effort to clear such things up before game-start.

In my current partnership we would be in a force, as we have bid game alone red, and there where no stronger route available. (It migth be wise to use 4NT as a forcing raise to 5♦, but we don't.)

With a completely unknown partner, I would be rather clueless as to whether it was forcing, but I would guess it was. (With many of my "once-in-a while partners" I believe I'd be on wavelength.)