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New suit on the 2-level after overcall What is standard near you?

#1 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2010-December-01, 11:25

I am wondering how people play sequences like:

(1) 1 (p) 2

and

(1) 2 (p) 2

Is this forcing or not?
What would a jump in a new suit (3-level) be? Natural and (non)forcing, i.e. the other hand, or a fitjump?

Note that I chose two sequences that are not Rubens transfer sequences.
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#2 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-December-01, 11:46

I play them as forcing and I don't know anyone who doesn't. I'm not stating that to imply that 'no-one plays them non-forcing'...only as a statement that in my relatively limited world, the forcing meaning seems universal.
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#3 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-December-01, 11:52

I've seen either forcing or non-forcing constructive around here. Personally I prefer the non-forcing treatment for the first example, since one-level overcalls can be pretty lousy and there are a lot of hands where you'd want to respond in case partner has a maximum but have no real interest in getting higher opposite some random 8-count with decent hearts. I prefer the second example forcing because a two-level overcall promises real values (and a bit narrower range) for me than the one-level bid.
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#4 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2010-December-01, 12:01

Both would be forcing for me.
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#5 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2010-December-01, 12:07

I play them as constructive but not forcing. To force, one has first to cue-bid.

At the one-level and the three-level I'd play them as forcing.

A jump in a new suit would be a fit-bid.
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#6 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-December-01, 13:30

I would normally assume forcing. I recently played with someone who wanted them to be non-forcing, about 8-11. I wanted to play Robson-Segal. We noticed that this is not really compatible, as there are no forcing bids without a fit left. I would be very happy if someone could propose a solution for this problem, until then I'll prefer forcing. ;)
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#7 User is offline   Lurpoa 

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Posted 2010-December-01, 16:00

yes forcing, definitively _ unless a passed hand

2 can be a 4card
2 is 5 card

a jump in that position is a weak 5 card, prempt and competitive
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#8 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-December-01, 16:17

I've played them forcing for years and found myself passing with good 6 card suits and 7 counts. More recently, I've been playing a jump shift in response to an overcall if 3rd chair does not bid as a good hand but NF, although over a 2 level overcall they can sensibly be used as forcing. This assumes we are at the 3 level and not higher. Playing this way, I think you can play NF or NF/constructive much more comfortably.

Fit jumps are fine, but they are more valuable in competitive auctions. When 3rd chair passes, there is a good chance its our hand.
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#9 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-December-01, 17:44

The second one is forcing for me, but my 2 over 1 overcalls are really sound.


The first one I play as non forcing, but my definition is "forcing unless you overcalled with crap". Because it is not totally forcing, 3 is now forcing.


About what is standard aroudn me, I think 98% players don't even know. But they will pass the second one often.
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#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2010-December-01, 18:29

Non-forcing constructive, for me. I agree with Fluffy, I think a lot of players around here haven't actually thought about it.
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#11 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-December-01, 19:11

I play new suits as forcing and jump new suits as fit. I'm sure that fit jumps are right, and I'm sure that opposite a two-level overcall new suits should be forcing.

Facing a one-level overcall, I think there's a good case for playing new suits as non-forcing. You almost never have a hand that wants to insist on game opposite a simple overcall. If I did have such a hand, I could live with having to guess which game to play in, treat a doubleton as support, or risk a non-forcing new-suit bid.
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#12 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2010-December-01, 20:57

NF constructive for me.

I can't recall a partner who explicitly discussed the difference between these two sequences (after a 1-level overcall vs. after a 2-level overcall), incidentally -- in the case of your first auction, NFC has been nearly universal when I've filled out a card at a partnership desk.

With my regular partner the jump shift is a fit bid, but I wouldn't assume that without discussion.
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#13 User is offline   andy_h 

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Posted 2010-December-01, 21:07

I play 1/1 is forcing, 2/1 is NF but constructive, 2/2 etc are forcing. Although I'm starting to like 3/1 as forcing when 3rd hand has passed since it's very useful when it comes up and doesn't create awkward auctions if I have to start with a cue-bid with LHO bidding again. It just means I'm giving up FSJ when I can just put those hands in one of my raises.
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#14 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2010-December-02, 07:21

NF, but NF does not mean crap.

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#15 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2010-December-02, 07:32

I have always played (1) 1 (p) 2 as non-forcing. The 1 shows some spades and some values, the 2 shows a hand that is more or less worthy of a 2 bid even if partner had not come in. Such hands come up fairly often and I would not want to give up this natural meaning.

By default, I treat (1) 2 (p) 2 as non-forcing and this seems to be the way it is usually intended. I am far from certain that this is best. I think that somewhere in Mike Lawrence's Complete Book of Overcalls (and I believe he has an update that I haven't bought) he prefers forcing but accepts that most people play it as non-forcing. Maybe I'll get the update for myself as a Christmas present.
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#16 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2010-December-02, 07:44

I play both as NF and the jump is forcing. Playing the first auction as forcing strikes me as odd unless you play sound overcalls.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#17 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2010-December-02, 07:47

View Postmgoetze, on 2010-December-01, 13:30, said:

I would normally assume forcing. I recently played with someone who wanted them to be non-forcing, about 8-11. I wanted to play Robson-Segal. We noticed that this is not really compatible, as there are no forcing bids without a fit left. I would be very happy if someone could propose a solution for this problem, until then I'll prefer forcing. ;)


Proposed solution: don't play Robson Segal.

I think that the bridgematters website has a nice interview with Eric Rodwell. I couldn't say it any better than he did.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#18 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-December-04, 09:57

View Posthan, on 2010-December-02, 07:47, said:

Proposed solution: don't play Robson Segal.


Thanks Han, that sure helped. ;)

Anyway, I understand from your other post that you forgo fit jumps in these auctions. How do you define 2NT?
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#19 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2010-December-04, 15:05

For me it's definitely forcing if I haven't passed. I have no other method of making a forcing bid, as a cue bid would be a transfer.

For others around here I think it is a mixture of all three - forcing, non-forcing, and no agreement. Just recently the opponents' bidding stopped in a making partscore, with a good fit and game values, because responder thought it was forcing and opener didn't. Unfortunately for me, the game unavoidably goes off with wasted values, finesses wrong.
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#20 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-December-05, 16:46

View Posthan, on 2010-December-02, 07:47, said:

Proposed solution: don't play Robson Segal.

I think that the bridgematters website has a nice interview with Eric Rodwell. I couldn't say it any better than he did.


Well, I reread the interview (it's been a year or so), but I don't feel enlightened.

Quote

BridgeMatters: Negative Free Bids in competitive auctions—do you like them in standard or just with a strong club base?

Eric Rodwell: It is something that I only play with a couple of partners. It is difficult to play because you have a lot of trouble clarifying the better hands. If you just put everything in an omnibus multi-meaning negative double, and then have the eventual three level jump raise by the opponents, you are just going to have terrible trouble sorting it out. Playing standard, I definitely don’t like them. I just want to be able to make my forcing free bid. The only time I play them is playing a strong club system where my partner’s hand is limited. As for . . . Negative Free Bids, I recommend not using them.


So basically I should only play NFBs in conjunction with a strong club or the like. But what are the ". . ." NFBs he recommends not using?
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