[paulhar]

1. Is this grand biddable in either standard or 2/1 GF, and if so, how?

2. Is this grand biddable in either standard or 2/1 GF starting with 1H-2C-3NT (18-19), and if so, how?

---

[dake50]

East cannot now find fitting CQ.
West showed his hand as S+D stops -- not rich controls.
I guess not.

Can West GF explore? Get a club rebid + H:Hxx support?
Just barely room to A-ask safely, far off find Q's.

[bucky]

1♥ -- 2♣
2NT -- 3♥
3NT -- 4NT
5♣ -- 6♣
6NT -- 7NT

2♣ = game force
2NT = 12-14 or 18-19 balanced, side suits stopped
3NT = serious slam try with spade control
5♣ = 1 or 4 (must be 4)
6♣ = tell me your 3rd round control in clubs
6NT = ♣Q, no extra cards than already showed
7NT = that's enough for me to count to 13 tricks

[mike777]

paulhar, on 2010-November-05, 11:45, said:

1. Is this grand biddable in either standard or 2/1 GF, and if so, how?

2. Is this grand biddable in either standard or 2/1 GF starting with 1H-2C-3NT (18-19), and if so, how?

---

(1) Seems easy if e is dealer:

1c=1h
3c=4c(slam try)
4d(rkc in c)=4h(0-3)
4s(q ask)=5h(qc,kH, deny Kd and Ks)
7nt
---


If w is dealer then I start with mexican 2d....east shows long clubs and etc to 7nt.



2d!=2nt!(forces 3c)
3c!=4d(rkc in c)
etc
------------


again pretty easy if forced to start 1h=2c=3nt then:
1h=2c
3nt=4c(slam try in c)
4d(rkc in c)=4nt(2 deny q)
5h(grand try, promises all keys, KH)=7nt

[Cyberyeti]

I don't play standard or 2/1. The issue seems to be that 1♥-2♣-2N which is GF for me (2♣ isn't in itself) is what you'd do on a weaker hand.

For us the auction would go 1♥(4+cards)-2♣-2N(GF not always balanced)-3♣(cheapest sensible bid, 5th one)-3♥(5th one)-4♠(RKC in H)-5♣(1/4)-6♣(I have one of the ♣K/Q, have you got the other)-7♥(yes)-7N(can count 13-15 tricks depending on whether the ♥ break.

[straube]

paulhar, on 2010-November-05, 11:45, said:

1. Is this grand biddable in either standard or 2/1 GF, and if so, how?

2. Is this grand biddable in either standard or 2/1 GF starting with 1H-2C-3NT (18-19), and if so, how?

---

I thought standard was that a 2N rebid was 12-14 or 18-19 and a jump to 3N was 15-17 (for those who like the ability to open 1M with 15-17).

That aside, after 1H-2C, 3N you need to play transfers.

4D would transfer to hearts (for instance).

Then you need to have the agreement that your RKC checks for two suits...hearts and clubs OR you need to agree hearts and then make a control asking bid in clubs.

[Fluffy]

After 1♥-2♣-3NT east bids 4♣ setting up the club fit since he cannot set the hearts now, he will keycard and then ask about ♣Q after partner shows 3, west will show ♣Q and ♥K luckylly and 13 tricks are assudred.

When the heart is the fit you need specific queen ask like bucky described above.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

The key to finding the cold grand ( 7NT ) is the "3rd Rnd Ctrl ASK" as bucky mentioned ( 6C! here ).

After your RKC bid and reply, when you BY-PASS the K-ask ( at least one step past the K-ask ) with a side-suit bid ( usually 6-of-a-suit... ) , then the reply options for this deal are:

6H = no 3rd Rnd Ctrl
7H = doubleton
7C = cQJ
6NT = cQ ( NT shows the feature asked for ) >> 7NT ( Asker can count to at least a sure 13 tricks ) .

[bucky]

Cyberyeti, on 2010-November-05, 13:25, said:

I don't play standard or 2/1. The issue seems to be that 1♥-2♣-2N which is GF for me (2♣ isn't in itself) is what you'd do on a weaker hand.

That's why in 2/1 you have a distinct range of 12-14 OR 18-19 for the 2NT bid. Partner treats it as 12-14, but you will bid again after partner's supposed sign-off, when holding 18-19.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

bucky, on 2010-November-05, 15:29, said:

That's why in 2/1 you have a distinct range of 12-14 OR 18-19 for the 2NT bid. Partner treats it as 12-14, but you will bid again after partner's supposed sign-off, when holding 18-19.

Correct....
... and after 1H - 2C - 3NT shows 15-17 .

In general after a 2/1 GF Response:

1x 2y 2N = 12-14 or 18-19 (18-19 will bid above 3N)
1x 2y 3N = 15-17
1x 2y 2z 2N = 12-14 or 18-19 (18-19 will bid above 3N)
1x 2y 2z 3N = 15-17

[Zelandakh]

The slam is not so difficult using Adv-level methods when you arrange for East to do the asking - bucky gave one possibility using his personal methods. However if West ends up in charge then the situation is much more interesting. Now finding out Kx/Qxx/x/AKxxxx (with one more x in S, D or C) should be possible but locating the CJ is pretty difficult.

[mike777]

As I said I think if forced to bid 1h=2c=3nt given the OP easy for west to start rkc and east to jump to 7nt.

[Zelandakh]

♦

mike777, on 2010-November-05, 17:07, said:

As I said I think if forced to bid 1h=2c=3nt given the OP easy for west to start rkc and east to jump to 7nt.

All of your auctions start by agreeing clubs. Naturally that is a completely different scenario from the one where hearts is agreed and in essence simply acts as an alternative means of telling East about the CQ before East makes the final decision.

[mtvesuvius]

Even a simple

1♥ - 2♣ [/Game Forcing]
3N - 4♣ [17-19 BAL/RKC in ♣]
4♥ - 4♠ [0 or 3/Queen Ask]
5♥ - 7N [Yes, and ♥K/I can count 3♠, 3♥ 1♦ and 6♣]

Would work.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2010-November-05, 16:53, said:

The slam is not so difficult using Adv-level methods when you arrange for East to do the asking - bucky gave one possibility using his personal methods. However if West ends up in charge then the situation is much more interesting. Now finding out Kx/Qxx/x/AKxxxx (with one more x in S, D or C) should be possible but locating the CJ is pretty difficult.

That is so true.... not to mention finding the sQ or possibly the hJ .
I also feel it is the "( outside) K poor" hand that should NOT do the "asking" ( be in charge ).
It is so much easier to find Aces than Kings when you use RKC .

[subvert]

1nt-2nt (maybe too strong to start with 1nt)
3c 3d (3d=d single/vucuum)
4d 7nt (4d=super max with dA,so 7nt has a play)

[subvert]

subvert, on 2010-November-06, 19:52, said:

1nt-2nt (maybe too strong to start with 1nt)
3c 3d (3d=d single/vucuum)
4d 7nt (4d=super max with dA,so 7nt has a play)

[Free]

1. yes
2. yes

All East has to do is start an RKC auction with ♣ as trumps.

[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-November-06, 04:20, said:

That is so true.... not to mention finding the sQ or possibly the hJ .
I also feel it is the "( outside) K poor" hand that should NOT do the "asking" ( be in charge ).
It is so much easier to find Aces than Kings when you use RKC .

I've been thinking about this and there might be a way to achieve your aim. Suppose you have an auction like 1H - 2NT; 3H - 3S; 4C. Now 4S might be Kickback RKCB. But what if you only used 4S with a hand that has 2 or 3 side kings? With 0 or 1 side kings you bypass 4S and give your normal key card response. Knowing that partner never has more than 1 side king means that once that is shown follow-up asks are for queens. For example in the above auction: 1H - 2NT; 3H - 3S; 4C - 4NT (1 or 4); 5C - 5S (HQ and SK); 5NT. The 5NT bid becomes a queen ask since it is already known that the CK is not held. The downside would be the inability to continue the cue auction beyond RKCB.

I do not know how this would play in practise but I think it is worth investigating. I use a similar concept in my relay-based system but in that case it is designed so that the less known hand is always the asker. Two4bridge's comment has given me this idea for how the idea might be usefully extended to natural systems.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zel....

I too like to use 4S! Kickback-RKC for ♥ as trump....

....but, then I'm fond of the Meckwell use of 4NT! as Voidwood for ♥, excluding the ♠ Ace