[VixTD]

Scoring: MP

.P....P...1♣..1♥
1♠...P...2♥...X
4♣...P...4♦...P
4♥...P...4♠...P
5♣...P....P....P

---

EW play Acol, 12-14 no trump, and this was their bidding sequence to a dreadful contract. There was some discussion about the hand afterwards.

EW have the fairly common agreement among non-experts that 1♠ promised 5+ spades. The club expert was firmly of the opinion that West should have passed 4♠ or that East should have corrected to 5♠ over 5♣. West himself thought that as East had started cue-bidding with 4♦ he couldn't be confident that 4♠ was a suggestion to play rather than another cue-bid, and couldn't be sure that East had any spade support. The expert countered that East should not cue-bid 2♥ without three-card support for spades. West said that even if East does have three spades, he can't really pass 4♠ when there are still good chances of a slam.

No one reached a slam, but many pairs played in a spade game.

What do you think, particularly about the meaning of East's 4♠ bid?

[helene_t]

2♥ doesn't show spade support.

The club expert is probably confused with the situation
opening-(overcall)-cuebid, where the cuebid shows support because a strong hand with an own suit can just make a forcing freebid and because responder could have a very strong hand with support.

When it is opener that cuebids the situation is different. He can have 18+ with long clubs but 3♣ isn't forcing. That's what you use the cuebid for. And also for 18-19 balanced hands without spade support and without a heart stopper, but obviously such hands will be rare. A strong hand with spade support can just bid 3♠ or 4♠. His failure to open 2NT or 2♣ means that he can hardly be too strong for 4♠. With a monster hand with spade support and heart shortness he can splinter 3♥.

East can makes things simple by bidding 4♠ immediately. I can understand he won't do that with 3-card support, so 2♥ is OK, but then he really needs to bid 4♠ on his next turn. OK, maybe he thinks it is ok to let partner think that clubs is trump since he can always correct 5/6♣ to spades. But then he must do so at the end!

If west's 4♥ shows a heart control, East can bid 6♠ now I think. If he doesn't dare to do that he should not have made a slam try opposite a passed hand in the first place.

[Zelandakh]

Agree with everything Helene said except that I would say the 18+ balanced hand without heart stop is the more common hand type for 2H. A logical Acol auction would be 1C - (1H) - 1S - 4S - 5C - 5D - 5H - 6C - 6S/P. I am somewhat surprised to see N-S not competing further with their great 10 card fit. More effective interference would seem to be the most likely reason that no E-W pairs found slam.

[NickRW]

Not sure I think much of the club expert. Concur that 2♥ doesn't guarantee support, so West has to take it (the 4♠ bid) as a cue rather than an attempt to sign off with support - indeed West could hardly have bid much more strongly - so why would East be signing off?!

Nick

[Cyberyeti]

I would bid 2♠ first time as looking at my hand I'm half expecting to hear 4♥ from the next hand so letting partner know in one bid that I have 4 clubs, 5 spades and a reasonable hand in context is the best I can do. Even if you play this as weak with spades, by a passed hand it surely must be this as you've failed to use a weak 2.

Did the club guarantee 2/3/4 minimum ? Ours would be 4 but I suppose if it's 2 the fit jump shows 5-5 so it's even better.

[ONEferBRID]

Cyberyeti, on Oct 6 2010, 10:48 AM, said:

I would bid 2♠ first time as looking at my hand I'm half expecting to hear 4♥ from the next hand so letting partner know in one bid that I have 4 clubs, 5 spades and a reasonable hand in context is the best I can do. Even if you play this as weak with spades, by a passed hand it surely must be this as you've failed to use a weak 2.

Did the club guarantee 2/3/4 minimum ? Ours would be 4 but I suppose if it's 2 the fit jump shows 5-5 so it's even better.

Nice call on the Fit-Showing-Jump in competition and/or by a passed hand !

[Fluffy]

The general rule to follow is: never ask when you can show. 2♥ means he cannot show his hand over 1♠, what hands cannot be show? the GF hands without heart stopper.

after realising 2♥ is GF, it now goes to 4♣ being a nonsense bid, consuming all space for nothing. 3♣ is the proper bid. Now 3♠ by opener will put the right suit as trumps.


passing 5♣ is hopeless, whatever 4♣ meant, it wasn't weak, east has a powerhouse and partner has ceubid his problem in hearts, east has to bid slam.

[helene_t]

Cyberyeti, on Oct 6 2010, 04:48 PM, said:

Did the club guarantee 2/3/4 minimum ?

OP states "Acol" so it is almost certainly agreed as 4+.

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on Oct 6 2010, 12:03 PM, said:

Cyberyeti, on Oct 6 2010, 04:48 PM, said:

Did the club guarantee 2/3/4 minimum ?

OP states "Acol" so it is almost certainly agreed as 4+.

That doesn't hold at all, acol with 5 card spade and 3 card club is quite common, rarer with 5cM and 2 clubs, but I have played against it (although usually with a mid/strong no trump).

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Unless 2H showed the fit, 4S is a cue.

And it does not matter, East should wake up after opener showed
a heart control, he knowes about the double fit, he knowes all suits
are stopped.

And it is common knowledge, that 5m usually dont pay well playing MP.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[VixTD]

Zelandakh, on Oct 6 2010, 09:42 AM, said:

I am somewhat surprised to see N-S not competing further with their great 10 card fit. More effective interference would seem to be the most likely reason that no E-W pairs found slam.

South had: ♠J43 ♥AKJ963 ♦763 ♣5

North had: ♠107 ♥Q1082 ♦Q1085 ♣J86

so yes, I was surprised too.

[VixTD]

NickRW, on Oct 6 2010, 09:54 AM, said:

Not sure I think much of the club expert.

I don't think scientific bidding is his forte, but he was probably just trying to forcefully make the point that 5♣ is the wrong place to play, and they should be reaching game in spades, or a slam.

[helene_t]

Possibly E panicked after the 5♣ bid, realizing there was a mishap so 5♠ might be taken as a cue. Then he failed to consider that 6♠ was likely to be on so that mishap or not, 6♠ must be a better shot than pass.

I think the most important lesson is that the cuebid doesn't show support.

[bucky]

2♥ is just a general GF bid, it could be based on spade fit, strong clubs, or a balanced strong hand without good heart stopper. The responder should give opener some room to describe which hand type he holds. So 3♣ bid is much better in that it conserves bidding room. Opener can now bid 3♠ to show 3-card spade support. This will significantly simplify the rest of bidding. A sophisticated partnership can also think about using 6 keycard blackwood (for clubs and spades) after the double fit is discovered, which may enable the partnership to confidently reach 7♣ contract.

As a side note, fit-showing (by passed hand) is a logic and useful treatment for the responder hand.

[1eyedjack]

I think that the 4♣ bid is fine.

Firstly, I think it is entirely possible for opener to have sufficient extra values to wish to show them, without having enough for a game force, and to be stuck for a bid. That being the case, there is an argument for 3♣ by responder to be NF.

But even if 3♣ is forcing as seems to be the consensus, it sounds non-optimal to leave 4♣ as a meaningless bid purely because 3♣ concerves space. Sure, you would want 4♣ to be something pretty specific, but if this hand doesn't fit the bill I am not sure what does.

[helene_t]

Yeah, playing a weak NT, opener might cuebid with something like
Ax
xxx
AKx
AJxxx
so there is a case for the cuebid being only a one round force. In a strong-notrump system IMHO the cuebid is clearly GF.

Anyway, agree with 1eyedjack, the 4♣ bid is fine.

[Zelandakh]

helene_t, on Oct 9 2010, 10:26 AM, said:

Yeah, playing a weak NT, opener might cuebid with something like
Ax
xxx
AKx
AJxxx
so there is a case for the cuebid being only a one round force. In a strong-notrump system IMHO the cuebid is clearly GF.

Anyway, agree with 1eyedjack, the 4♣ bid is fine.

Helene, your listed hand is interesting because it shows up 2 possible differences of styles that might be relevant. To bid 2H on a balanced hand without stop you need a hand that would have gone to the 2 level. For may Acolites this is 17+ whereas for others 18+. Of course your listed hand is 16 but it is clearly worth at least 17, perhaps even 18 with some intermediates. So depending on your style of upgrading and your policy of the minimum limit for the cue bid the hand might or might not be worth a 2H bid here. Incidentally this has knock-on effects for opening bids and is the reason some Acolites open 1D with (23)44 and 15-17 (rebid 2C when stuck) but are comfortable with 1C on 18-19 hcp (rebid 2H).

[helene_t]

Yeah, without the intervention the rebid would have bid 1NT. Now I would personally prefer to rebid to be 1NT with the intervention as well, hence not promising a stop. Then the cuebid would be GF. But I wouldn't be sure if playing with a random advanced Acol-player.

[Fluffy]

I understand the urge to bid 2♥ with that hand, but the best rebid is 1NT, going to the 3 level to find that you don't have a fit nor a stopper won't help your cause.

It it conceibable that you might have a reverse hand with 4 hearts and surprisingly no stopper of them, then you are a bit stuck with no bid.

[the hog]

Cyberyeti, on Oct 6 2010, 10:48 PM, said:

I would bid 2♠ first time as looking at my hand I'm half expecting to hear 4♥ from the next hand so letting partner know in one bid that I have 4 clubs, 5 spades and a reasonable hand in context is the best I can do. Even if you play this as weak with spades, by a passed hand it surely must be this as you've failed to use a weak 2.

Did the club guarantee 2/3/4 minimum ? Ours would be 4 but I suppose if it's 2 the fit jump shows 5-5 so it's even better.

The op said Acol, so 1C can of course be a three carder in a 4333 shape, as that is generally played by tournament players these days. I quite like the fit showing jump.