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Scoring: IMP
1♣* (1♠) ?
*2+
He chose double, while I would have bid my long suit. What do y'all think? If you double, where do you draw the line? I assume you would bid 2♦ with x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx?
Understanding the negative double
#1
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Posted 2010-July-06, 21:26
I was kibitzing some experts and Bart Bramley had this decision (spots approx., forgot vul):
1♣* (1♠) ?
*2+
He chose double, while I would have bid my long suit. What do y'all think? If you double, where do you draw the line? I assume you would bid 2♦ with x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx?
1♣* (1♠) ?
*2+
He chose double, while I would have bid my long suit. What do y'all think? If you double, where do you draw the line? I assume you would bid 2♦ with x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx?
#2
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Posted 2010-July-06, 21:27
Oh, and I meant negative double - can I edit the title?
#3
- Csaba the Hutt
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Posted 2010-July-06, 21:36
i like x on this hand. it's not so good. with 6-4 definitely bid diamonds though.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
George Carlin
#4
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Posted 2010-July-06, 21:37
I x here since I have 4 good♥ and really want PD to bid them even with 4 small. Now if you clearly weaken my ♥ and strengthen my ♦ I will usually then bid 2♦
#5
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Posted 2010-July-06, 21:44
X and I would still X with x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx. Oops ignore that, that should be 3♥/2♦ as the others said
It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.
Bridge should be fun!
Bridge should be fun!
#6
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Posted 2010-July-06, 21:47
Bidding diamonds then hearts would show a hand with 4 hearts and longer diamonds. Double (then look for 3NT) would show a balanced hand with 4 hearts.
Not only are our diamonds not great, but we have Qx in their suit, so selling the hand as balanced with 4 hearts seems to me clearly the best description.
With x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx you would bid diamonds then hearts.
Not only are our diamonds not great, but we have Qx in their suit, so selling the hand as balanced with 4 hearts seems to me clearly the best description.
With x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx you would bid diamonds then hearts.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
#7
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Posted 2010-July-06, 21:48
655321, on Jul 6 2010, 10:47 PM, said:
Bidding diamonds then hearts would show a hand with 4 hearts and longer diamonds. Double (then look for 3NT) would show a balanced hand with 4 hearts.
Not only are our diamonds not great, but we have Qx in their suit, so selling the hand as balanced with 4 hearts seems to me clearly the best description.
With x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx you would bid diamonds then hearts.
Not only are our diamonds not great, but we have Qx in their suit, so selling the hand as balanced with 4 hearts seems to me clearly the best description.
With x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx you would bid diamonds then hearts.
Also with that fine hand with the very fine 6 card ♦ suit and stiff in their suit, we are GF+ and hoping for a ♦ slam. I bid 2♦ then also and most clearly.
PS.. I'm jealous ..655321's cat is cuter than mine
#8
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Posted 2010-July-07, 00:08
10000% clear double. You have barely a game force, what is so exciting about your ATxxx minor suit compared to your KQJ9 of the unbid major?
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
#9
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Posted 2010-July-07, 02:21
Obvious Dbl imo
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#10
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Posted 2010-July-07, 03:37
Mark: dbl is better than 2♦ because you show both suits. That is important in the case 4th player raises to 3♠.
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Posted 2010-July-07, 07:34
MarkDean, on Jul 6 2010, 10:26 PM, said:
I was kibitzing some experts and Bart Bramley had this decision (spots approx., forgot vul):
1♣* (1♠) ?
*2+
He chose double, while I would have bid my long suit. What do y'all think? If you double, where do you draw the line? I assume you would bid 2♦ with x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx?
Scoring: IMP
1♣* (1♠) ?
*2+
He chose double, while I would have bid my long suit. What do y'all think? If you double, where do you draw the line? I assume you would bid 2♦ with x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx?
It makes for an easy raise if the auction continues ....X (P) 1NT (P) so you get to find the best strain and showing ♦ and ♥ stoppers really helps.
"Tell me of your home world, Usul"
the Freman, Chani from the move "Dune"
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw
the Freman, Chani from the move "Dune"
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw
#12
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Posted 2010-July-07, 07:57
whereagles, on Jul 7 2010, 10:37 AM, said:
Mark: dbl is better than 2♦ because you show both suits. That is important in the case 4th player raises to 3♠.
You can always Dbl over 3♠. Still, Dbl immediately gets both suits in the picture, and ♦ aren't that much better than ♥ to start with 2♦.
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#13
- Csaba the Hutt
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Posted 2010-July-07, 08:00
whereagles, on Jul 7 2010, 09:37 AM, said:
Mark: dbl is better than 2♦ because you show both suits.
do you really play X as ♦+♥?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
George Carlin
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Posted 2010-July-07, 08:19
Double shows HEARTS!!! That's it!
Kevin Fay
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Posted 2010-July-07, 08:20
Americans...
100% double with 4♥ no matter how many points or diamonds you have imo.
The problem with such thinking is that in modern bridge there will often be no chance for "then" or "then" will have to come at 4 level which you don't want. The most important thing to show is 4♥ before they jump to 3♠/4♠.
100% double with 4♥ no matter how many points or diamonds you have imo.
Quote
With x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx you would bid diamonds then hearts.
The problem with such thinking is that in modern bridge there will often be no chance for "then" or "then" will have to come at 4 level which you don't want. The most important thing to show is 4♥ before they jump to 3♠/4♠.
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Posted 2010-July-07, 08:50
bluecalm, on Jul 7 2010, 02:20 PM, said:
Quote
With x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx you would bid diamonds then hearts.
The problem with such thinking is that in modern bridge there will often be no chance for "then" or "then" will have to come at 4 level which you don't want. The most important thing to show is 4♥ before they jump to 3♠/4♠.
Disagree.
If they jump to 3S you can bid 4H next.
If they are going to jump to 4S regardless of what you do, don't you think that showing diamonds is more important than showing hearts? Aside from that, bidding 2D comes with a bonus - it has a higher minimum strength requirement than DBL.
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#17
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Posted 2010-July-07, 09:46
Quote
Disagree.
If they jump to 3S you can bid 4H next.
If they jump to 3S you can bid 4H next.
I am really not happy with bidding 4♥ unless I have at least 6-4, spade shortness and very offensive hand. I can't imagine bidding 4♥ having only 5-4 no matter how strong my hand is I hope you agree with that.
It's probably one of those things dependent on area. Here in Poland we always double having 4♥. It was necessity when playing negative free bids (standard here) but nowadays people mainly play transfers but still:
1♣ - 1♠ - 2♣ (diamonds) usually denies 4♥.
On 3 level, for example:
1♦ - (2♠) - 3♣ I can't imagine anybody here having 4♥.
I've notice people from North America have other views (that's why I started my original post with "americans"...).
#18
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Posted 2010-July-07, 09:48
bluecalm, on Jul 7 2010, 03:46 PM, said:
I am really not happy with bidding 4♥ unless I have at least 6-4, spade shortness and very offensive hand.
You mean like x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
George Carlin
#19
- Andy Bowles
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Posted 2010-July-07, 09:48
bluecalm, on Jul 7 2010, 04:46 PM, said:
It's probably one of those things dependent on area.
It might also be one of those things where one way is clearly better than another.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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Posted 2010-July-07, 10:48
bluecalm, on Jul 7 2010, 03:46 PM, said:
Quote
Disagree.
If they jump to 3S you can bid 4H next.
If they jump to 3S you can bid 4H next.
I am really not happy with bidding 4♥ unless I have at least 6-4, spade shortness and very offensive hand.
That is a perfect description of the hand you were talking about!
Quote
I can't imagine bidding 4♥ having only 5-4 no matter how strong my hand is I hope you agree with that.
I can imagine it, but we basically agree. For me DBL is just as clear on the 5-4 hand that started this thread as 2D is with the 6-4 hand in question.
It is actually not an "American thing". It is a "Standard American thing"
Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
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