[hanp]

Now that everybody agrees I have nothing to add, but:

Earlier this week I had 10 AQxx AK108xx Qx and it went 1C - (3S), all red at IMPs. Double or 4D? I bid 4D on automataic pilot but I now think double is quite a bit better.

[peachy]

whereagles, on Jul 7 2010, 04:37 AM, said:

Mark: dbl is better than 2♦ because you show both suits. That is important in the case 4th player raises to 3♠.

There are more than one ways to play Negative Doubles. The time when it was common that negative double promised both unbid suits, is about 50 years ago.
The current mainstream without agreements - in my observation - is that negative double promises the unbid major (if there is one), one unbid major (if there are two), and both unbid majors ONLY in the auction 1C (1D) Dbl.

However, I know I will likely get scorn, but with opening strength or gameforcing hand I prefer to show shape and bid 2D, then later hearts unless partner has denied hearts. The example hand is "on the fence" and I might double.

[ArtK78]

hanp, on Jul 7 2010, 12:02 PM, said:

Now that everybody agrees I have nothing to add, but:

Earlier this week I had 10 AQxx AK108xx Qx and it went 1C - (3S), all red at IMPs. Double or 4D? I bid 4D on automataic pilot but I now think double is quite a bit better.

I like double.

The more interesting question is what action you take over partner's 4♣ rebid - 4♦? 5♣? Something else? Furthermore, is 4♦ natural over 4♣ or a cue bid?

[RichMor]

fred, on Jul 7 2010, 09:50 AM, said:

bluecalm, on Jul 7 2010, 02:20 PM, said:

Quote

With x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx you would bid diamonds then hearts.

The problem with such thinking is that in modern bridge there will often be no chance for "then" or "then" will have to come at 4 level which you don't want. The most important thing to show is 4♥ before they jump to 3♠/4♠.

Disagree.

If they jump to 3S you can bid 4H next.

If they are going to jump to 4S regardless of what you do, don't you think that showing diamonds is more important than showing hearts? Aside from that, bidding 2D comes with a bonus - it has a higher minimum strength requirement than DBL.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Fred,

Side question: if the auction goes like this
1♣ - (1♠) - 2♦ - (4♠)
P - (P) - 4NT
does 4NT probably show Hearts ?

I think it should.

RichM

[fred]

RichMor, on Jul 7 2010, 07:38 PM, said:

Fred,

Side question: if the auction goes like this
1♣ - (1♠) - 2♦ - (4♠)
P - (P) - 4NT
does 4NT probably show Hearts ?

I think it should.

RichM

My initial reaction is that 4NT suggests at least one other place to play (ie hearts and/or clubs).

If you bid 4NT, partner should assume 3-card club support and pick between the minors.

If you then correct 5C to 5D, you have diamonds and hearts.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[mikeh]

hanp, on Jul 7 2010, 12:02 PM, said:

Now that everybody agrees I have nothing to add, but:

Earlier this week I had 10 AQxx AK108xx Qx and it went 1C - (3S), all red at IMPs. Double or 4D? I bid 4D on automataic pilot but I now think double is quite a bit better.

I think you should stay on autopilot rather than thinking yourself into a negative double.


Surely partner will bid a natural 4♥ over 4♦ if he holds any 4 card heart suit?

The only contracts you miss via 4♦ are 3N and 3♠x'd.

You would be uncomfortable passing 3N on the one hand.....and if you don't pass, what do you bid...and what does that show?....and while defending 3♠ may work, and would certainly collect a decent number if he has his leave-in, you're surely going to be worried that you had a better spot...like at the 6 level.

And what does the poor fellow do with say xx Kxx Qxx AKxxx? Or Axx Kx QJx KJxxx.

Not that 4♦ is a panacea, but I hate concealing a slam suitable trump suit AND slam suitable high cards merely to cater to 3N or defending, both of which decisions will be made by partner based on what he expects a middle-of-the-road double should deliver....not what I actually hold.

If he does bid 4♥ over 4♦, I have an easy spade cue.

[pirate22]

if one is ply sayc-sayc2/1----and p opens 1cl opp comes in 1sp--x (neg) shows
8+ points any shape-you are looking for pards rebid,(If 3sp comes in)and p silent one canstill x

Usually if you bid as suggested 2d thats showing no tol for cl and a weak hand 7/8 points

[barryallen]

mikeh, on Jul 7 2010, 03:12 PM, said:

hanp, on Jul 7 2010, 12:02 PM, said:

Now that everybody agrees I have nothing to add, but:

Earlier this week I had 10 AQxx AK108xx Qx and it went 1C - (3S), all red at IMPs. Double or 4D? I bid 4D on automataic pilot but I now think double is quite a bit better.

I think you should stay on autopilot rather than thinking yourself into a negative double.


Surely partner will bid a natural 4♥ over 4♦ if he holds any 4 card heart suit?

The only contracts you miss via 4♦ are 3N and 3♠x'd.

You would be uncomfortable passing 3N on the one hand.....and if you don't pass, what do you bid...and what does that show?....and while defending 3♠ may work, and would certainly collect a decent number if he has his leave-in, you're surely going to be worried that you had a better spot...like at the 6 level.

And what does the poor fellow do with say xx Kxx Qxx AKxxx? Or Axx Kx QJx KJxxx.

Not that 4♦ is a panacea, but I hate concealing a slam suitable trump suit AND slam suitable high cards merely to cater to 3N or defending, both of which decisions will be made by partner based on what he expects a middle-of-the-road double should deliver....not what I actually hold.

If he does bid 4♥ over 4♦, I have an easy spade cue.

The problem is that bypassing 3♠x and 3NT are significant. You have the addition that if partner bypasses 3NT, you have a lot of values working for you in a possible slam. Nothing to stop you venturing past 3NT and stopping in 4NT or 5 of a minor, the only real worry comes with leaving the hand in 3♠x. But as partners hand lies under the pre-empt, I believe that would take the edge from that decision?