[Phil]

I honestly didn't notice the 2♠ promising 6, sorry. I still think 2N goes a long way toard getting us to the right spot here.

However, I don't think its playable for 3♠ to show xx, sorry Han, any more than a subsequent 4♦ bid is somehow trying to unearth a 4-4 fit.

At some point we need to actually agree trump, instead of having a feel-good chat session about our hands.

I just don't get 4♦ 'agreeing spades'. What would responder do with: K, AKQxx, AQxx, xxx? Maybe someone smarter than me can shed some light.

[nigel_k]

No problem with the auction up to 4♠.

At that point it seems to me that if you cue bid first or second round controls and North bids on, bypassing Blackwood, then you are at serious risk of this kind of thing happening when both players have extras but there is wastage and you are off two key cards. Maybe outstanding judgement all the time can avoid it but I'd rather not put myself under that pressure.

On the actual hand slam should be avoided. North has already shown a club control by not signing off after 4♦. Therefore he should cue bid 5♥ not 5♣ and South should conclude at that point that Kx AKxxx xx Axxx is too much to hope for and/or partner might have bid 5♣ with that hand.

[P_Marlowe]

South basically denied 3 hearts, so South cant have the Hand, which North
envisioned, so AQJxxx Qxx Axx x is impossible.

Also x vs. Kxxx is also not a brilliant holding, since the king is wastage.

Of course North expected a stronger South hand, due to the 4D bid.

I think South should find a different bid than 2S, maybe 3S or 4S, the way
South did bid, he decided that he wanted to hide the primary heart support,
which is ok, but than he should have shown the 7th spade, which he did not,
I suspect, he could have shown the 7th spade with 3S or 4S.
I would assume that 3S would show a max.

So all in all I give South most of the blame.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jdonn]

Phil, on Jun 29 2010, 03:54 PM, said:

I just don't get 4♦ 'agreeing spades'. What would responder do with: K, AKQxx, AQxx, xxx? Maybe someone smarter than me can shed some light.

Why shouldn't responder want to agree spades opposite what may be stiff K? When I say "agree" I don't mean we couldn't play in another suit anyway, just that bids of other suits at the 4 and 5 level are cuebids and that we have a suit for keycard. That is important to establish. We can definitely get back to other suits, through 5NT pick a slam bids or a player eventually jumping to slam in another suit.

[mike777]

IF 3s over 2s shows 3 card support then prefer 2nt to 3c then over 3h I can rebid 3s.

now opener rebids 4s or 4d........I would pass 4s......over 4d then 4h...4s...4nt again not 5c.

It seems to keep coming back to north error not south.

-----


side note if 1s then 2s could be liteish....I would just fast arrival with 4s over 2 assuming we are not playing picture bids.

[JLOL]

1S: auto
2H: auto
2S: With 7 good and 3 not-so-good this is fine, raising hearts directly will too often lead to the wrong major suit game.
3C: Terrible, this shape should rebid 2N if 3M promises 3. Personally I used to think 3M should promise 3 until playing with a lot of good players who think it can be HH doubleton and a primed out hand and a ruffing value (much like this hand). Either way 3C sucks.
3H: Almost always shows a doubleton (honor). The only time you bid 2S with 3 hearts is 7 good spades.
3S: Normal, could be stiff K but usually hsows a doubleton.
4D: Perfectly fine esp in precision. As little as K AKxxx xxx Axxx is slam. Obviously sets spades. there's no setting heartts in this auction when you almost surely have 8 spades and 7 hearts.
4H: last train. This is fine with a primed out hand.
4S: Sign off, only 1 KC+Q and a bunch of queens. 4D was enough.

So far a perfect auction. The other hand was crazy to bid over that.

[whereagles]

justin, that's a fine example of how to mess up a simple hand:

1♠ 2♥
2♠ 4♠

It's precision, and opener didn't even bid 3♠. Where do you think you're going?

[jdonn]

JLOL, on Jun 30 2010, 12:23 AM, said:

1S: auto
2H: auto
2S: With 7 good and 3 not-so-good this is fine, raising hearts directly will too often lead to the wrong major suit game.
3C: Terrible, this shape should rebid 2N if 3M promises 3. Personally I used to think 3M should promise 3 until playing with a lot of good players who think it can be HH doubleton and a primed out hand and a ruffing value (much like this hand). Either way 3C sucks.
3H: Almost always shows a doubleton (honor). The only time you bid 2S with 3 hearts is 7 good spades.
3S: Normal, could be stiff K but usually hsows a doubleton.
4D: Perfectly fine esp in precision. As little as K AKxxx xxx Axxx is slam. Obviously sets spades. there's no setting heartts in this auction when you almost surely have 8 spades and 7 hearts.
4H: last train. This is fine with a primed out hand.
4S: Sign off, only 1 KC+Q and a bunch of queens. 4D was enough.

So far a perfect auction. The other hand was crazy to bid over that.

How about south's 5♦ vs 5♥ instead at that point?

[jdonn]

whereagles, on Jun 30 2010, 03:53 AM, said:

justin, that's a fine example of how to mess up a simple hand:

1♠ 2♥
2♠ 4♠

It's precision, and opener didn't even bid 3♠. Where do you think you're going?

To slam? AQJxxxx Qxx Ax x. AQJxxx Qxx Axx x. AQJxxxx Qx x Axx. QJxxxxx Qx A Axx.

[mikegill]

not to mention that (at least for me) 3♠ shows a solid suit and sets trumps...

[whereagles]

jdonn, on Jun 30 2010, 04:19 PM, said:

whereagles, on Jun 30 2010, 03:53 AM, said:

Where do you think you're going?

To slam?
AQJxxxx Qxx Ax x.
AQJxxx Qxx Axx x.
AQJxxxx Qx x Axx.
QJxxxxx Qx A Axx.

All of those are obvious 3♠ rebids playing precision. Except perhaps the 2nd one which, facing a 2/1 in hearts, is pretty much GF anyway.

[whereagles]

mikegill, on Jun 30 2010, 04:38 PM, said:

not to mention that (at least for me) 3♠ shows a solid suit and sets trumps...

Precision is not 2/1 GF.

[jdonn]

whereagles, on Jun 30 2010, 11:46 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 30 2010, 04:19 PM, said:

whereagles, on Jun 30 2010, 03:53 AM, said:

Where do you think you're going?

To slam?
AQJxxxx Qxx Ax x.
AQJxxx Qxx Axx x.
AQJxxxx Qx x Axx.
QJxxxxx Qx A Axx.

All of those are obvious 3♠ rebids playing precision. Except perhaps the 2nd one which, facing a 2/1 in hearts, is pretty much GF anyway.

After a 2/1 we (and most people?!) play the jump rebid sets trumps and shows a better suit than those hands have.

Did you miss in the opening post when I said 2♥ was forcing to game?

[whereagles]

I don't have any more comments, but let me just ask you one thing. In "most people" jump rebid scheme,

1♠ 2♥
3♠ 3NT

is what?

[lmilne]

whereagles, on Jul 1 2010, 07:50 AM, said:

I don't have any more comments, but let me just ask you one thing. In "most people" jump rebid scheme,

1♠ 2♥
3♠ 3NT

is what?

You can't set trumps then un-set them. 3NT is serious...

Jump rebids by opener are to express (very) specific hand types, rather than general enthusiasm, IMO.

[hrothgar]

Wandering into this one late:

1. I have long played styles in which one cue bids 1st / 2nd round controls, as well as length / shortage. Playing this style, its often impossible to transition from cue bidding into Blackwood. 4NT takes a lot of different meanings, but it is very rarely an Ace Ask (or even key card) once cuebidding has started.

2. I think that the single worst bid is the 5♦ response over 5♣. This should confirm a first round control. I think that Han's giirlfriend was spot on: at this point in time 5♥ is much better. (I'd go so far to say that 5♦ is the only bid that I don't like)

[FrancesHinden]

While I don't necessarily agree with some of the earlier bidding, I do agree with hrothgar (and others) that the point where the wheels really fell off was with the 5D bid.

South has already cued diamonds once, he can't cue them again on a singleton because North is entitled to think he has the ace.

edit: I suppose I should add that I've never played a style where you cue bid first/second round controls indiscriminately.

[jdonn]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 3 2010, 03:43 AM, said:

While I don't necessarily agree with some of the earlier bidding, I do agree with hrothgar (and others) that the point where the wheels really fell off was with the 5D bid. 

South has already cued diamonds once, he can't cue them again on a singleton because North is entitled to think he has the ace.

edit: I suppose I should add that I've never played a style where you cue bid first/second round controls indiscriminately.

So should north force to slam based entirely on the 4♦ bid with KT AKxxx xx Axxx? I was south (duh) and could buy that I shouldn't bid 5♦ but I think I must bid either 5♦ or 5♥. In the context of the earlier sign off and opposite partner's bidding my hand is quite good.

[gnasher]

With the South hand I'd have driven slam after 5♣, so even though I don't quite understand 5♦ I don't think it was the cause of the problem.

With the example South hand you mentioned earlier in the thread, AQJxxx Qxx Axx x, I don't think South should sign off in 4♠.

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Jul 3 2010, 10:50 AM, said:

With the South hand I'd have driven slam after 5♣, so even though I don't quite understand 5♦ I don't think it was the cause of the problem.

I wanted to see if partner could bid 5♥ so I could differentiate something like Kx AKxxx xx Axxx from Kx Axxxx xx AKxx. I still think it seems quite reasonable? That's also why I didn't choose 5♥, because that would get partner to bid slam himself with the second example IMO.

I agree that AQJxxx Qxx Axx x shouldn't sign off in 4♠ over 4♥. Keycard seems fine and then we will find the heart king if it's there with the keycards and bid a grand.