[neilkaz]

I don't mind the auction up to 4♠ (don't mind the 4♦ cue bid)although I could have bid differently a couple of times.

However, when I see the terrible 5♣ cue bid I envision an engineer on an old time locomotive train and he is yelling "Ramming speed" to the two workers shovelling coal onto the fire.

North can find out what he needs to know for slam by simply bidding RKC and since he holds both major suit kings there's no abiguity as to what key cards South can hold. North should envision the very real possibilty that South cue bid a stiff ♦ and also note that South failed to cue 4♣ so he can't really expect a control there. 5♣ is so bad that I have to give the majority of the blame to North.

Now..with his 5♦ bid, the engineer of the South train (opener's) is also screaming "Ramming speed". LOL why cuebid a stiff queen twice? South has nothing more to add to the cuebidding discussion and should certainly try to sign off in a major.

Why 6♠ from opener instead of trying to sign off in 5♠? Perhaps South felt that North's 4♥ bid bypassing ♣ combined with his 5♣ bid bypassing Blackwood guarantees the ace and also more slam interest than North should have with that hand opposite a precision 1♠ opening.

Anyhow... 5♣ was superbad and 5♦ very bad. 6♠ seems to be quite unfortunate and based on the missinterpretation North started with his 5♣ bid.

" Yes Sir .. mission completed, Sir"

http://redstick.file...trainwreck2.jpg

[Fluffy]

hanp, on Jun 29 2010, 02:22 PM, said:

Responder has shown a doubleton spade.

responder has shown ♠K, nothing to do with how many cards he's got, in fact he is quite likelly to have it stiff given his will to show clubs instead of showing support the round before.

[hanp]

neilkaz, on Jun 29 2010, 09:57 AM, said:

Now..with his 5♦ bid, the engineer of the South train (opener's) is also screaming "Ramming speed".  LOL why cuebid a stiff queen twice? South has nothing more to add to the cuebidding discussion and should certainly try to sign off in a major.

Presumably because south judged (correctly imo) that he was too good for 5S. Perhaps 5H is better as a "last train" bid, but maybe south was afraid to show the ace or king of hearts.

It is so easy to say that south should certainly try to sign off when we can see that north has made a huge overbid, but south did not know that. All south knows is that north is still trying for slam after he signed off. How much more can south have? And what is north looking for, it can't be keycards. Perhaps north is worried about trumps?

Could north have xx AJ10xx Ax AKxx?

That would make 6S a very good slam, and with that hand north can't ask for keycards because with a spade holding such as ♠AQxxxx slam would be bad. It seems crystal clear to me that south should at least cooperate.

By the way, we all play that 4H shows a club control, right? Shouldn't 5C then show AKxx rather than Kxxx?

[hanp]

Fluffy, on Jun 29 2010, 10:19 AM, said:

hanp, on Jun 29 2010, 02:22 PM, said:

Responder has shown a doubleton spade.

responder has shown ♠K, nothing to do with how many cards he's got, in fact he is quite likelly to have it stiff given his will to show clubs instead of showing support the round before.

I realized that responder could have a singleton, but I disagree that responder has shown the king. Why can't responder have xx? 3S is not a cue, it suggests playing in spades.

[Phil]

3♣ is not my choice. Things run so much better after 2N - 3♠ - 4♣. 3♣ also forced the auction into this ping-pong match of doubt about strain, although assuming North isn't cuebidding shortness, South really doesn't care.

3♥ worked out poorly in practice, but its hard to lay too much blame on supporting partner's 5 card suit with Qxx.

4♠ limits south hand, but North took it as extras and forward going. South meant it as - "I like spades better than hearts". Even I really don't know what North is hoping for with 5♣ - perhaps AQxxxxx, Qxx, Ax, x, but surely South is bidding more aggressively with this.

I don't get 5♦/5♥ either but there seems to be some vague last train overtones here. Looking at AQJxxxx when I know partner has the K; I know what trump are.

[Fluffy]

jdonn, on Jun 29 2010, 07:55 AM, said:

2♠ promises 6

If you have a good hand you bid 3♠ the round before, if your hand is poor you better bid 4♠ now, wich BTW was the right bid on this hand.

[hanp]

Phil, on Jun 29 2010, 10:25 AM, said:

3♣ also forced the auction into this ping-pong match of doubt about strain, although assuming North isn't cuebidding shortness, South really doesn't care.

Now three people have posted that there was doubt about strain but I can't find it, not in the auction and not in Josh's explanation. 3S was natural, and 4D was a cue for spades, end of story.

3H worked out poorly just like opening 1S worked out poorly. If you pass initially then you are unlikely to get to slam, but that doesn't make it reasonable to pass.

Quote

4♠  limits south hand, but North took it as extras and forward going. South meant it as - "I like spades better than hearts".

Where do you get this stuff? Shall we assume for a moment that both players are competent, that 4D was a cue for spades, 4H was a cue for spades, and 4S was a sign off? I know, it's hard to imagine giving the 5C call that followed.

[kfay]

5♣ is the bid to blame, IMO. If you're going to cuebid again you should bid 5♥, where I come from 4♥ already promised the ♣K or A (or stiff). It's not clear to me whether 5♣ should promise AK or just solidifies that it's the ace (S obviously thinks the latter), but whatever it is N doesn't have it.

So if you're going to be bold bid 5♥, comfortable in the fact that you've well shown your club control. Now S can make a good decision. S, I'm sure, thought N had the ♣A and that his extra club was going on the hearts so no blame, I think....

That said I'm not a fan of the 5♦ bid either. But perhaps a genius S was giving N a chance to cuebid their ♥AK? That seems reasonable but kinda smacks of masterminding.

By the way, for those of you wondering... 3♠ is not a cuebid. Game before slam.

For the rest of you, 4♥ is a cuebid for ♠.

[pooltuna]

Quote

Now three people have posted that there was doubt about strain but I can't find it, not in the auction and not in Josh's explanation. 3S was natural, and 4D was a cue for spades, end of story.

Well only North is sure about ♠ and supports after he was supported by South with the 3♥ call. Isn't South supposed to be thinking "North made the 3♣ call to show 5♥ and ask for support"? The answer is apparently not but N ignored the implications to his partner after his partner supported with 3♥ now he thinks 3♠ shows support and his partner thinks it was a ♠ qbid. The auction quickly derailed from here.

[pooltuna]

kfay, on Jun 29 2010, 10:39 AM, said:

5♣ is the bid to blame, IMO. If you're going to cuebid again you should bid 5♥, where I come from 4♥ already promised the ♣K or A (or stiff). It's not clear to me whether 5♣ should promise AK or just solidifies that it's the ace (S obviously thinks the latter), but whatever it is N doesn't have it.

So if you're going to be bold bid 5♥, comfortable in the fact that you've well shown your club control. Now S can make a good decision. S, I'm sure, thought N had the ♣A and that his extra club was going on the hearts so no blame, I think....

That said I'm not a fan of the 5♦ bid either. But perhaps a genius S was giving N a chance to cuebid their ♥AK? That seems reasonable but kinda smacks of masterminding.

By the way, for those of you wondering... 3♠ is not a cuebid. Game before slam.

For the rest of you, 4♥ is a cuebid for ♠.

IMO the 3♥ call established the trump suit for South

[kgr]

The easiest part is most interesting for me:
1♠-2♥
2♠-3♣
3♥-3♠
Isn't 3♠ a cue for ♥. Because with ♠ support we could bid?:
1♠-2♥
2♠-3♠
=> How do you define if you are setting trumps or are bidding controls?

[kfay]

pooltuna, on Jun 29 2010, 10:49 AM, said:

kfay, on Jun 29 2010, 10:39 AM, said:

5♣ is the bid to blame, IMO.  If you're going to cuebid again you should bid 5♥, where I come from 4♥ already promised the ♣K or A (or stiff).  It's not clear to me whether 5♣ should promise AK or just solidifies that it's the ace (S obviously thinks the latter), but whatever it is N doesn't have it.

So if you're going to be bold bid 5♥, comfortable in the fact that you've well shown your club control.  Now S can make a good decision.  S, I'm sure, thought N had the ♣A and that his extra club was going on the hearts so no blame, I think....

That said I'm not a fan of the 5♦ bid either.  But perhaps a genius S was giving N a chance to cuebid their ♥AK?  That seems reasonable but kinda smacks of masterminding.

By the way, for those of you wondering... 3♠ is not a cuebid.  Game before slam.

For the rest of you, 4♥ is a cuebid for ♠.

IMO the 3♥ call established the trump suit for South

Are you out of your mind? What do you bid with AQJxxx Qx xx Axx?

I guess over 3♣ I bid 4♣? Or 3NT promising a ♦ stop? Or 3♠ presumably promising a 7th spade? I guess you must play 3♦ asks for a diamond stop, right?

3♥ only promises a doubleton.

If that means we're no longer allowed to play in spades (our 8-card fit) and must play in hearts, (our 7-card fit) then I don't want to play this system anymore, thank you.

You're assertion is that over 2♠ N must bid 3♠ right away. That's also nuts. Maybe we belong in NT??

Sure you can construct hands where we have bidding problems at this point (AQJxxx x xxx AQx) but it's just too restrictive to require 3♥ to show at least 63xx shape. We'll have a lot more problems that way. Just look at this hand, wouldn't we rather play in ♠ than ♥? Yet after 3♥ apparently we have no way to do that.

[kayin801]

North should be shot for not bidding keycard earlier and letting South find such a ridiculous bid as 5♦.

RE: most recent discussion, we've definitely set spades as trumps, having the double fit in hearts is just icing on the cake.

[pooltuna]

kfay, on Jun 29 2010, 11:04 AM, said:

pooltuna, on Jun 29 2010, 10:49 AM, said:

kfay, on Jun 29 2010, 10:39 AM, said:

5♣ is the bid to blame, IMO.  If you're going to cuebid again you should bid 5♥, where I come from 4♥ already promised the ♣K or A (or stiff).  It's not clear to me whether 5♣ should promise AK or just solidifies that it's the ace (S obviously thinks the latter), but whatever it is N doesn't have it.

So if you're going to be bold bid 5♥, comfortable in the fact that you've well shown your club control.  Now S can make a good decision.  S, I'm sure, thought N had the ♣A and that his extra club was going on the hearts so no blame, I think....

That said I'm not a fan of the 5♦ bid either.  But perhaps a genius S was giving N a chance to cuebid their ♥AK?  That seems reasonable but kinda smacks of masterminding.

By the way, for those of you wondering... 3♠ is not a cuebid.  Game before slam.

For the rest of you, 4♥ is a cuebid for ♠.

IMO the 3♥ call established the trump suit for South

Are you out of your mind? What do you bid with AQJxxx Qx xx Axx?

I guess over 3♣ I bid 4♣? Or 3NT promising a ♦ stop? Or 3♠ presumably promising a 7th spade? I guess you must play 3♦ asks for a diamond stop, right?

3♥ only promises a doubleton.

If that means we're no longer allowed to play in spades (our 8-card fit) and must play in hearts, (our 7-card fit) then I don't want to play this system anymore, thank you.

You're assertion is that over 2♠ N must bid 3♠ right away. That's also nuts. Maybe we belong in NT??

Sure you can construct hands where we have bidding problems at this point (AQJxxx x xxx AQx) but it's just too restrictive to require 3♥ to show at least 63xx shape. We'll have a lot more problems that way. Just look at this hand, wouldn't we rather play in ♠ than ♥? Yet after 3♥ apparently we have no way to do that.

perhaps I should have typed 3♥ established trump in South's mind. With the hand you provided what is stopping S from calling 3♦ as a clear (to me anyway) ask for a ♦ stopper? This also reduces the need to raise ♥ with a doubleton.

[mike777]

Prefer 3s not 3c.

then south can cue 4d....and north can bid 4nt or 4hcue which south would rebid 4s; after this north could bid 4nt rkc.


given the OP auction I would still 4nt over 4s not 5c.

[jdonn]

Lol it's never possible to be clear enough in the opening post I guess, except for hanp and arend who I thank for injecting a shred of sanity into the discussion. All of the following are apparently relevent facts for this partnership (and they are indeed facts).

- 3♥ is usually a doubleton since south would usually raise right away with 3, thus it does not establish trumps. If north wants hearts to be trumps after 3♥ he must bid 4♦ or 4♥.
- Raising spades right away would promise 3 even though 2♠ promised 6.
- The 4♦ bid absolutely established spades as trumps, there was no ambiguity about that in the mind of either player.

I posted this as an evaluation problem. Now that being said, north didn't pass 4♠ because he thought south could still have a hand like AQJxxx Qxx Axx x. South bid 6 at the end for reasons already stated by han of the 7th spade and fitting queens in the context of having already signed off once. Thoughts?

Simplifying: North played south for AQJxxx Qxx Axx x. South played north for Kx AKxxx xx Axxx. Who was wrong?

[hanp]

I gave the south hand to my girlfriend. Not the north hand because north's bidding was not interesting to me.

She bid 2S then 3H, and then after 3S thought it was close between 4D and 4S, she could live with 4D. Then a clear 4S over 4H.

When partner bid 5C she was not sure what partner was looking for. She didn't want to sign off and eventually settled for 5H, which I agree is a much better bid than 5D.

[neilkaz]

jdonn, on Jun 29 2010, 12:17 PM, said:

Lol it's never possible to be clear enough in the opening post I guess, except for hanp and arend who I think for injecting a shred of sanity into the discussion. All of the following are apparently relevent facts for this partnership (and they are indeed facts).

- 3♥ is usually a doubleton since south would usually raise right away with 3, thus it does not establish trumps. If north wants hearts to be trumps after 3♥ he must bid 4♦ or 4♥.
- Raising spades right away would promise 3 even though 2♠ promised 6.
- The 4♦ bid absolutely established spades as trumps, there was no ambiguity about that in the mind of either player.

I posted this as an evaluation problem. Now that being said, north didn't pass 4♠ because he thought south could still have a hand like AQJxxx Qxx Axx x. South bid 6 at the end for reasons already stated by han of the 7th spade and fitting queens in the context of having already signed off once. Thoughts?

Simplifying: North played south for AQJxxx Qxx Axx x. South played north for Kx AKxxx xx Axxx. Who was wrong?

Once again I must say that like most others here I wonder why North bid 5♣ rather than RKCB which would tell him how many aces South has.

[hotShot]

neilkaz, on Jun 29 2010, 06:50 PM, said:

Once again I must say that like most others here I wonder why North bid 5♣ rather than RKCB which would tell him how many aces South has.

I think the problem is that responder holding KT AK9xx Jx Kxxx did not expect partner to hold a single ♦. to him it is more likely that partner really holds an A or Kx(x) in ♦. He does not know about the 7th ♠ and 3rd ♥. Responder wants to hear about the 2nd ♦ keycard and the best way to get there is allowing for the 5♦ cue bid.

[Apollo81]

jdonn, on Jun 29 2010, 01:17 PM, said:

Simplifying: North played south for AQJxxx Qxx Axx x. South played north for Kx AKxxx xx Axxx. Who was wrong?

IMO North is wrong. There's no way I'm bidding 4♠ with that South hand once North bids 4♥.