[kfay]

Partner opens 1♦ and you hold:

10xx AQx Jxx Axxx

[MarkDean]

How does one show an invitational balanced hand in your system?

[peachy]

1H. Just pretend there are four of them. Second and third choices 2NT and 1NT.

PS. GIB bid 1H, too - with invitational values and no good diamond support, just a few days ago. But what it also did was keep rebidding those damn "hearts". Ended up in 4H with 3-3 fit and made it. Crazy.

[Phil]

2N. Not in the mood to genius this. Let's try to get to the field contract for a change.

[Jlall]

1N seems pretty automatic to me, wouldn't really consider anything else.

[pooltuna]

kfay, on Apr 8 2010, 10:46 PM, said:

Partner opens 1♦ and you hold:

10xx AQx Jxx Axxx

If nothing specific is available, bite the bullet and call 1NT. Being conservative on this hand usually works pretty well at MP. Hard to tell at IMPS but I suspect it is OK.

[kfay]

Alright, if you bid 1N, partner bids 2♥. You bid 3♦ and he bids 3N.

If you bid 2N, partner bids 3N.

If you bid 1♥, partner bids 3♥.

[Jlall]

I guess my 3D bid was forcing! If partner had 3451 or w/e he would bid 3S over 3D, so I'm gonna infer partner has no spade stopper and is likely 1453 or maybeeeee 2452 with no spade stopper.

x KJxx AKQxx KQx is not such an amazing hand and it's a laydown slam. It is MP though so we might need to get to 4H in the 4-3, though we're taking the tap in the long hand we may be able to do a dummy reversal or just pitch 3 times. This is especially true if partner is xx KJxx AKQxx KJ or something.

Torn between bidding 4C and 4H. Meh I think I'll do well for 5D+1 if 3N is down, so there's not that much reason to try for 6D. Guess I'll go 4H and try for the brass ring that way.

[gnasher]

After 1♦-1NT;2♥, I'd bid 3♥ not 3♦. I won't agree to play 3NT with this - whichever black singleton partner has, a red-suit game is likely to be better.

Going back to the question of what to respond, I understand that you might respond 1NT because your methods don't allow you to bid this well anyway, and because missing a 25-point game at matchpoints may not be a disaster, but let's not pretend that 1NT does justice to the hand. It does have two aces amongst the 11 points.

[Jlall]

IMO playing 3D as forcing makes no sense in this auction anyways. If you just bid 2S with your GF hands partner can describe his hand very well, and you can bid 2N/3C/3D all non forcing which partner is likely to pass unless very strong. If you play it the other way that 2S is all weak hands and bids are forcing it seems much worse since you eat up room and partner is strapped over 2S with minimums anyways so he never gets full room to describe his hand no matter what.

Gnasher-- I was thinking of 3H right away, why do you prefer 3H then bidding over 3D then 4H? Just because the hearts are so good in this context?

Again, I think 3D does a better job at getting us to a diamond slam and 3H does a better job of getting us to hearts. Our hand is really good for a diamond slam though so I don't mind 3D, even though obv 3H does not preclude a diamond slam necessarily.

[Jlall]

gnasher, on Apr 10 2010, 02:02 AM, said:

After 1♦-1NT;2♥, I'd bid 3♥ not 3♦.  I won't agree to play 3NT with this - whichever black singleton partner has, a red-suit game is likely to be better.

Going back to the question of what to respond, I understand that you might respond 1NT because your methods don't allow you to bid this well anyway, and because missing a 25-point game at matchpoints may not be a disaster, but let's not pretend that 1NT does justice to the hand.  It does have two aces amongst the 11 points.

Even if I could invite in NT via something like 2H and not 2N so I didn't wrongside it or whatever (which I often have in my methods), I would bid 1N. I have a 4333 11 count at MP. I'm not as in love with aces as everyone else when we are playing a random balanced 3N I guess.

To me saying 1N doesn't do justice to this hand is like saying passing 1N with a 4333 8 count does not do justice to the hand. I don't really know what it means, I'm a maximum for 1N but to me it's pretty automatic at MP with any 4333 11.

This is slightly different because partner could be something like a 4441 15 count and pass even so we'd miss a 26 HCP game. But keep in mind if partner bids 2C or 2D we can show a super hand via bidding 2H so most of the times when partner is unbalanced we are fine.

Generally when partner passes he will have some kind of 11+-14 hand that he opened, and I'm happy playing 1N opposite that range of hands, I don't want to invite game. In this way, it is even better to bid 1N with 11 4333 than it is to pass 1N with a 4333 8, because 1N is 15-17, and many 11s at MP are opening bids imo so it would be like passing a 14-17 NT. Partner might have unbalanced 11s like 3451 or 4441 whatever that pass 1N where playing 2N is a disaster.

Additionally, with a super 14 partner might have opened 1N himself.

I'm pretty surprised that 1N is not a standard bid with a 4333 11 tbh at MP, but again I don't value the aces that much higher than usual assuming we are playing NT. IME it is a huge winner to bid 1N with this hand type at MP, but maybe I open more 11s than most people or upgrade more 14s than most (imo I upgrade less 14s than most experts though) or something.

I actually didn't think at all about this hand being hard to show in most systems if I wanted to show a bal invite, but now that you mention it 2N with no spade stopper is also not ideal heh. But that wasn't what I was thinking when I bid 1N. I was just thinking that 2N will get us to MANY bad 2N contracts, and even when partner bids 3N I expect it to be more bad than good, so inviting made no sense to me with that train of thought.

The vul was not listed here but if we are white that's even more reason to bid 1N imo (partner should open lighter), and if the opps are red that's also more reason to bid 1N (the opps like to prebalance/balance at MP, and then I can double them in anything and get 200). One side effect of bidding 1N on hands like this with great defense and not much offense at MP is that you get to double them a lot imo, similar to bidding 1S p 2S with 4333 and like AQ A with red opps.

[gnasher]

Jlall, on Apr 10 2010, 08:08 AM, said:

Gnasher-- I was thinking of 3H right away, why do you prefer 3H then bidding over 3D then 4H? Just because the hearts are so good in this context?

Again, I think 3D does a better job at getting us to a diamond slam and 3H does a better job of getting us to hearts. Our hand is really good for a diamond slam though so I don't mind 3D, even though obv 3H does not preclude a diamond slam necessarily.

I'm not going to be able to judge whether we belong in slam or not, or whether 4♥ is better than 5♦, so the best I can do is to try to show my hand and let partner decide. 3♥-something-4♦ sounds a lot more like what I've got than 3♦-something-4♥.
3♥-4♦-5♣ is also a good descrption of my hand.

The only awkward sequence is 3♥-4♥, but I don't think that's very likely to happen. He can't really judge to play in a 4-3 fit when he doesn't know about ♣A.

[gnasher]

Jlall, on Apr 10 2010, 08:15 AM, said:

This is slightly different because partner could be something like a 4441 15 count and pass even so we'd miss a 26 HCP game. But keep in mind if partner bids 2C or 2D we can show a super hand via bidding 2H so most of the times when partner is unbalanced we are fine.

Generally when partner passes he will have some kind of 11+-14 hand that he opened, and I'm happy playing 1N opposite that range of hands

Won't he also pass 1NT with a 4M-5♦ 15-count? Or do those hands all open 1NT?

[Jlall]

gnasher, on Apr 10 2010, 03:29 AM, said:

Jlall, on Apr 10 2010, 08:15 AM, said:

This is slightly different because partner could be something like a 4441 15 count and pass even so we'd miss a 26 HCP game. But keep in mind if partner bids 2C or 2D we can show a super hand via bidding 2H so most of the times when partner is unbalanced we are fine.

Generally when partner passes he will have some kind of 11+-14 hand that he opened, and I'm happy playing 1N opposite that range of hands

Won't he also pass 1NT with a 4M-5♦ 15-count? Or do those hands all open 1NT?

I was assuming 5422 would always open 1N (ya I know some people like to bid 1D with 4252 so maybe that's wrong).

I guess (34)51 might pass though, (14)53 def bids 2C though.

[kenrexford]

Couple of thoughts:

1. 1NT seems auto, I agree. I taught my wife how to play. She has about 150 masterpoints. One of the first things I taught her was to ignore my Dad about 6-9 1NT and play 1NT as about 5-11. I think it's that important to understanding the game.

1B. For those with the objections about unbalanced minor two-suiters with 14 to 16 and missing 3NT. Two responses. First, when partner responds 1NT, and you have that hand with both minors, bid 2♣. Seems obvious. Second, if that doesn't do the trick, this is one reason why in some partnerships I played a 2♦ opening as minors and about 14 to 16 HCP.

2. I agree that there are merits to 2♠ as GF and all else as weak, in the context of a limited responder. Interesting switch idea. If unlimited, 2♠ is weak. If limited, 2♠ is GF. I like it. would have to discuss, though.

3. The problem with 3♥ is that 1NT often has four hearts. But, playing 3♥ as hearts or strong frag makes sense.

[mcphee]

Good luck to all those who bid 2N invitational with this stuff. This is an easy 1N.

If my partner reversed in H I would bid 2S and look for a D slam. I so not expect to be trying the 4/3 H fit when 6 D has to be just about as good.

[kfay]

kenrexford, on Apr 10 2010, 07:48 AM, said:

Couple of thoughts:

1. 1NT seems auto, I agree. I taught my wife how to play. She has about 150 masterpoints. One of the first things I taught her was to ignore my Dad about 6-9 1NT and play 1NT as about 5-11. I think it's that important to understanding the game.

1B. For those with the objections about unbalanced minor two-suiters with 14 to 16 and missing 3NT. Two responses. First, when partner responds 1NT, and you have that hand with both minors, bid 2♣. Seems obvious. Second, if that doesn't do the trick, this is one reason why in some partnerships I played a 2♦ opening as minors and about 14 to 16 HCP.

2. I agree that there are merits to 2♠ as GF and all else as weak, in the context of a limited responder. Interesting switch idea. If unlimited, 2♠ is weak. If limited, 2♠ is GF. I like it. would have to discuss, though.

3. The problem with 3♥ is that 1NT often has four hearts. But, playing 3♥ as hearts or strong frag makes sense.

Shocked.

Thought for sure Rexford would bid 1♥.

[bluecalm]

1NT.

Partner can bid 2NT with some 5-4-2-2 or 3-4-5-1 (club stiff) 15pc hand.
I recently saw that Meckwell were bidding 2NT on some awful 11counts though (and they open EVERY 11) but that was imps and like 10 years ago.

[kfay]

bluecalm, on Apr 10 2010, 10:38 AM, said:

Partner can bid 2NT with some 5-4-2-2 or 3-4-5-1 (club stiff) 15pc hand.

He can?

[kenrexford]

1NT could be in jeopardy opposite some hands I open, and dummy could be the stronger of the two hands. LOL - the 1NT call may be right-siding the partscore!

seriously, tho, the weaker the 1NT actual range, the stronger that 1NT range as Responder must be.