[junyi_zhu]

kgr, on Apr 7 2010, 01:27 PM, said:

We now use that 4m is RKC (minorwood) when the minors has been agreed before; set as trumps before.
But this is still giving problems
Eg:
1S-2C
3H-4C
 
2C=GF with Clubs OR limit+ with 3cS
3H=15-19 Splinter
4C=RKC???
=> My partner thought this was RKC, but for me Clubs what not yet set as trumps before. Therefor 4C was setting trumps for me.
Conclusion: We need something easier, but still works ok.
Note: Most of the time we don't want to play 4m. Therefor it would be ok to use 4m always as RKC, but maybe that is not good. Eg: if you want to set the minor as trumps, but still need other info then RKC from partner.

On rgb I found:
The rule I use, learned from Eddie Kantar's book on RKC is:
1. If a minor suit is bid and raised at the 2- or 3-levels, then a
raise to 4m is RKC.
2. If not, then 4m is a natural call and the cheapest *new suit* above
4m is RKC.

....What do you think is best for us?

Kickback can be better because 4m is a useful bid to show extra length in m which can be important in slam bidding. Often, a successful slam is bid because the exact trump number is known before RKC.

[InTime]

kgr, on Apr 7 2010, 08:27 AM, said:

We now use that 4m is RKC (minorwood) when the minors has been agreed before; set as trumps before.
But this is still giving problems
Eg:
1S-2C
3H-4C
 
2C=GF with Clubs OR limit+ with 3cS
3H=15-19 Splinter
4C=RKC???
=> My partner thought this was RKC, but for me Clubs what not yet set as trumps before. Therefor 4C was setting trumps for me.

Me and my partner playes that when we are in a forcing situation . . . then 4m is Keycard.
In this instance 3♥ was a splinter because 2♥ is 100% forcing. With the splinter, you must have some club support, otherwise there is something serious wrong here. Therefore, implicitely you have raised clubs already . . . therefore 4♣ must be keycard. You are in a GF auction.
If partner wanted to set ♠'s as trumps, he would have bid 3♠, knowing that you cannot pass because you are in a GF auction already.
If you have bid a suit and partner has bid a minor and your suit has not been supported earlier in the auction and you are in a forcing situation (bidding strongly), then 4m is keycard.
Hope this helps a little bit.
Regards

[Cascade]

mikeh, on Apr 8 2010, 04:19 AM, said:

There are two classes of hands on which the 4minor bidder wants to explore for slam: those in which the only relevant information is how many keycards partner holds and those on which he needs to know where partner holds controls.

I think there is a third class where the 4m bidder wants to invite slam and just needs some extra values (or distribution).

[gwnn]

yep and in Hungary they cater for that hand by

4m=ORKC
...4m+1=good hand
...others=bad hand with this many keycards

I played this except that 4m+1 was the bad hand. I think this is a little better than simple RKC but I prefer 4m as natural.

[jillybean]

I had this auction at the p/ship bidding tables last night and not surprisingly, we weren't on the same page.

1♣:1♠
2♦:2♥* 4sgf
3♣:4♣ if we use this to set ♣ trump, asking partner to cue then is;

3♣:3♦ setting ♦ trump, asking partner to cue?
3♣:4♦ rkc for ♣?

[mikeh]

jillybean, on Apr 12 2010, 07:23 AM, said:

I had this auction at the p/ship bidding tables last night and not surprisingly, we weren't on the same page.

1♣:1♠
2♦:2♥* 4sgf
3♣:4♣ if we use this to set ♣ trump, asking partner to cue then is;

3♣:3♦ setting ♦ trump, asking partner to cue?
3♣:4♦ rkc for ♣?

your partner reversed, so it is not common to play 4SF after that. 2♥ is better used as ingberman: typically a weak hand that does NOT force to game, with all other bids being natural and forcing to game..(other than 2♠ which is ambiguous as to strength but shows 5+ spades) ... thus over 2♦, both 3♣ and 3♦ are gf and natural.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on Apr 12 2010, 07:13 AM, said:

jillybean, on Apr 12 2010, 07:23 AM, said:

I had this auction at the p/ship bidding tables last night and not surprisingly, we weren't on the same page.

1♣:1♠
2♦:2♥* 4sgf
3♣:4♣ if we use this to set ♣ trump, asking partner to cue then is;

3♣:3♦ setting ♦ trump, asking partner to cue?
3♣:4♦ rkc for ♣?

your partner reversed, so it is not common to play 4SF after that. 2♥ is better used as ingberman: typically a weak hand that does NOT force to game, with all other bids being natural and forcing to game..(other than 2♠ which is ambiguous as to strength but shows 5+ spades) ... thus over 2♦, both 3♣ and 3♦ are gf and natural.

Ah yes 2♥ should be natural after the reverse. We play Leb over a reverse to show a weak hand, I need to think about this some more.

[hanp]

Even though I think kickback is a very good convention, I would not recommend it except to quite serious bridge players who are in well established partnerships.

I wouldn't recommend 4m as keycards to anybody.

[jillybean]

hanp, on Apr 12 2010, 07:47 AM, said:

Even though I think kickback is a very good convention, I would not recommend it except to quite serious bridge players who are in well established partnerships.

What do you mean by 'quite serious bridge players' ? Players who are already expert or players who don't want to play 0-299'er church bridge?

hanp, on Apr 12 2010, 07:47 AM, said:

I wouldn't recommend 4m as keycards to anybody

4m meaning any minorwood type auction?

[hanp]

Not sure what expert means but I think most people my level are better off not playing kickback. (by which I don't mean to say that I know my level. )

As for 4m as keycards, I think there may be a few auctions where minorwood might be a good idea (like 1m-2m-4m, though I can't remember a hand where I wanted to ask for keycards immediately and 4NT wouldn't have sufficed). It's a bit like Gerber, playing a few auctions such as 1NT - 4C as Gerber might be a good idea but playing that any 4C bid in [such and such and such] auctions asks for aces sounds like a bad convention.

For the majority of improving bridge players I think it is a better idea to focus on partnership approach to slam bidding rather than other ways to ask for keycards. Being able to suggests a slam in clubs or diamonds seems very important to me, and sometimes you have to that at the 4-level.