[kgr]

We now use that 4m is RKC (minorwood) when the minors has been agreed before; set as trumps before.
But this is still giving problems
Eg:
1S-2C
3H-4C
 
2C=GF with Clubs OR limit+ with 3cS
3H=15-19 Splinter
4C=RKC???
=> My partner thought this was RKC, but for me Clubs what not yet set as trumps before. Therefor 4C was setting trumps for me.
Conclusion: We need something easier, but still works ok.
Note: Most of the time we don't want to play 4m. Therefor it would be ok to use 4m always as RKC, but maybe that is not good. Eg: if you want to set the minor as trumps, but still need other info then RKC from partner.

On rgb I found:
The rule I use, learned from Eddie Kantar's book on RKC is:
1. If a minor suit is bid and raised at the 2- or 3-levels, then a
raise to 4m is RKC.
2. If not, then 4m is a natural call and the cheapest *new suit* above
4m is RKC.

....What do you think is best for us?

[PrinceNep]

Why didn't 3♥ set trump in ♣? What was it a splinter in support of? Since partner didn't go back to 3S, doesn't that presume he has clubs?

It seems to me that it is the 3♥ bid that is causing the confusion in this auction. You can't really splinter if you don't have an agreed upon suit. Otherwise, you could just bid naturally at the 2 level and see partners response.

I have come across problems with Minorwood. In this auction, I think it should still be Minorwood.

[jjbrr]

Splinters in someone's suit agrees trumps unless you then immediately show support for partner's suit that you haven't been able to support yet.

A lot of people play the next suit above 4m as RKC (ie, 4♦ would be RKC in this auction), but that's up to you. You can see how it clarifies auctions like this, sort of, but it isn't without its own problems.

Personally I think 4♣ should be RKC in this auction if that's what you agreed to play, but I suspect it's not the best treatment.

Edit: Nep beat me. Slow pony is slow.

[Codo]

I have discussed this in legth with my partner. As with all methods, nothing works perfect, but we are happy with the result of "4m is always RCKB for that minor" and with a discussed: But not if list.

This "but not if" list includes:
-it is used as a splinter/cuebid
-it is needed competetive
-it is the raise of a preempt.
-after some openings like 2♣ and 2 ♦.

Works well for us.

Of course there are hands out there, where we had liked to aks other questions first, like controls, shape etc. But if we had not been able to find this out till 4 m, we have to guess anyway. And this method is quite easy. (Not that easiness is an important point for you, but it is for me....)

[jillybean]

My partner gave me this easy to remember, guideline for minorwood auctions:

A jump to 4m initiates the kc sequence, or after we move from 3N to 4m, having both bid suit m.

I won`t comment on my success rate, it`s still too new.

[jjbrr]

jillybean, on Apr 7 2010, 08:42 AM, said:

My partner gave me this easy to remember, guideline for minorwood auctions:

A jump to 4m initiates the kc sequence, or after we move from 3N to 4m, having both bid suit m.

I won`t comment on my success rate, it`s still too new.

This is a very reasonable guideline with the caveat that it will be nearly impossible to use when the minor is bid as a 2/1 call after a major opener.

[jillybean]

jjbrr, on Apr 7 2010, 07:45 AM, said:

jillybean, on Apr 7 2010, 08:42 AM, said:

My partner gave me this easy to remember, guideline for minorwood auctions:

A jump to 4m initiates the kc sequence, or after we move from 3N to 4m, having both bid suit m.

I won`t comment on my success rate, it`s still too new.

This is a very reasonable guideline with the caveat that it will be nearly impossible to use when the minor is bid as a 2/1 call after a major opener.

Agree, I think we would then be using kickback

1♠:2♦
3♦:4♥

but why not
1♠:2♦
3♦:4♦ minorwood

[jjbrr]

I would think 1♠ 2♦; 3♦ 4♦ should be minorwood, except that it's not a jump and is therefore a notable exception to the guideline.

[mikeh]

I play in a partnership where, at partner's insistence, 4minor is keycard.

I think it is horrible.

There are two classes of hands on which the 4minor bidder wants to explore for slam: those in which the only relevant information is how many keycards partner holds and those on which he needs to know where partner holds controls.

All too often, the suit is not clearly agreed upon until the 4 level...altho I woul dnot have included the splinter auction....the splinter sets trump.

So my preferred approach is:

if trump are clearly set at the 3 level (or below....maybe after an inverted raise), then 4minor can be used as minorwood.

if we need 4minor to set trump, it sets trump and invites cuebidding, and 4 of the next highest suit (unless it is partner's suit) is keycard

1♠  2♥
3♣  4♣  sets trump
    4♦ keycard
    4N diamond splinter

In essence, once we use kickback, 4N substitutes for whatever the kickback bid would have meant absent kickback....either a cue (if the kickback was a non-jump) or a splinter, if the kickback was a jump.

1♥  2♦
3♣  4♣  sets trump
    4♥   the partnership needs to discuss 4♥...if it is natural, then 4♠, instead, would be kickback. If you feel that there is no heart hand that would not bid 3♥, then 4♥ can be kickback.

[cherdanno]

Codo, on Apr 7 2010, 09:30 AM, said:

I have discussed this in legth with my partner. As with all methods, nothing works perfect, but we are happy with the result of "4m is always RCKB for that minor" and with a discussed: But not if list.

This rule is really surprisingly popular in Germany. I will never understand why.

(I had a decent pair bid 1H (2S) X (3S) 4D = Minorwood against me, just as an example.)

[ONEferBRID]

I see the dilema since 2C! does not guarantee a Cl suit .

So the 3H!-jump must be a self-spinter of some kind.
I would think it should show shortness with 5+ cards Sp and at least 3+ cards Cl.

[ BTW, I don't care for your 2C! option... but that is a side-issue ] .

Now, if partner ( Responder ) has the 3 card Sp limit raise ( or better ) hand , he can bid a forcing 3S to set trumps.
However, a 4C! bid shows the Cl suit hand ( did you mean "MF" to be GF ? )--and I'm assuming 5+ cards Cl -- and since Opener guarantees at least 3 cards Cl, then it would be Minorwood by your agreement .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Alternatively, if 3S would show Sp agreement, then 3NT! instead could show the Cl hand-- but unwilling to use RKC ( 4C! ) at this time.

[kgr]

PrinceNep, on Apr 7 2010, 04:24 PM, said:

Why didn't 3♥ set trump in ♣? What was it a splinter in support of? Since partner didn't go back to 3S, doesn't that presume he has clubs?

sorry, 3♥ is splinter with 4c♣.
The 3♥ bidder has ♠ and ♣, but it is not yet clear what is trump because the 2♣ is either 3c♠ or ♣s.
The splinter with 3♥ simply says that he has a singleton, 15+pts and a fit for whatever partner has.

[WellSpyder]

mikeh, on Apr 7 2010, 10:19 AM, said:

I play in a partnership where, at partner's insistence, 4minor is keycard.

I think it is horrible.

Same here.

Quote

There are two classes of hands on which the 4minor bidder wants to explore for slam: those in which the only relevant information is how many keycards partner holds and those on which he needs to know where partner holds controls.

Actually I think my biggest problem is with hands where I want to know whether partner wants to co-operate with a slam try or not. I'd often rather know whether he thinks he has a good hand for his bidding so far rather than how many keycards or even where his controls are.

[kfay]

Have the same agreements as MikeH, for the most part.

Out-of-focus major as keycard hasn't come up yet, but I'm sure I'll be ready to screw it up when it does.

I also dislike 4m as minorwood, usually. So often I just want to bid 4m.... naturally!!!

I guess no one likes to play in 5m?

[kgr]

ONEferBRID, on Apr 7 2010, 05:28 PM, said:

I see the dilema since 2C! does not guarantee a Cl suit .
So the 3H!-jump must be a self-spinter of some kind.
I would think it should show shortness with 5+ cards Sp and at least 3+ cards Cl.

The 3♥ guarantees 5+c♠, 1c♥, 4+c♣

ONEferBRID, on Apr 7 2010, 05:28 PM, said:

[BTW, I don't care for your 2C! option... but that is a side-issue ].

Strange that you know this without knowing the rest of our system.

ONEferBRID, on Apr 7 2010, 05:28 PM, said:

Now, if partner ( Responder ) has the 3 card Sp limit raise ( or better ) hand , he can bid a forcing 3S to set trumps.
However, a 4C! bid shows the Cl suit hand ( did you mean "MF" to be GF ? )--and I'm assuming 5+ cards Cl --  and since Opener guarantees at least 3 cards Cl, then it would be Minorwood by your agreement .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Alternatively, if 3S would show Sp agreement, then 3NT! instead could show the Cl hand-- but unwilling to use RKC ( 4C! ) at this time.

Yes, MF should be GF (I'll edit this in OP)
Our agreement is that 4m is minorwood if the trumpsuit was clearly agreed before the 4m bid. For the opener - bidding 3♥ - it was not yet clear that his partner has Clubs; and therefor 4C sets the trumpsuit and is not RKC....that is in fact the part that I don't like.
You have some point with 3NT, but 3NT could also be to play. Eg: good 4cH with good stops. Certainly at MP's it can not be used to set ♣ as trumps?

[gordontd]

kgr, on Apr 7 2010, 04:31 PM, said:

PrinceNep, on Apr 7 2010, 04:24 PM, said:

Why didn't 3♥ set trump in ♣?  What was it a splinter in support of?  Since partner didn't go back to 3S, doesn't that presume he has clubs?

sorry, 3♥ is splinter with 4c♣.
The 3♥ bidder has ♠ and ♣, but it is not yet clear what is trump because the 2♣ is either 3c♠ or ♣s.
The splinter with 3♥ simply says that he has a singleton, 15+pts and a fit for whatever partner has.

So when he doesn't rebid 3♠ then ♣ are trumps and 4♣ is RKCB.

[jdonn]

Play 4m+1 is keycard instead and that solves the problem of when trumps are set with a 4m bid. You're right that 4♣ technically was the bid that set trumps and yet it still seems foolish to not have it be keycard if that's your general agreement.

[mikeh]

WellSpyder, on Apr 7 2010, 10:38 AM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 7 2010, 10:19 AM, said:

I play in a partnership where, at partner's insistence, 4minor is keycard.

I think it is horrible.

Same here.

Quote

There are two classes of hands on which the 4minor bidder wants to explore for slam: those in which the only relevant information is how many keycards partner holds and those on which he needs to know where partner holds controls.

Actually I think my biggest problem is with hands where I want to know whether partner wants to co-operate with a slam try or not. I'd often rather know whether he thinks he has a good hand for his bidding so far rather than how many keycards or even where his controls are.

My OP was poorly phrased...the class of hands on which you'd like to know where his cards are (non-keycard) includes obtaining a below-game expression of interest. One rule that I have long followed, and that I think is fairly common, at least where various flavours of serious/frivilous 3N are either not played or not available, is that a cuebid below game is optional, while a cue-bid above game is mandatory. Thus, if 4♣ sets trump, partner cues only with a hand that is not hopeless in context....a cue simply says...'I have a control and am not totally turned off by the thought of slam...what do you think?' while 5♣ would convey the message that 'if you want to bid slam, you'd better have an incredible hand....I've got dreck'

[ONEferBRID]

Indeed, I am curious about the rest of the system.
For example, what would the following mean:

1S - 2C! ( GF, 3 cds Sp or 4+cds Cl )
??
2D = ?
2H = ?
2S = ? ( I assume extra length and no interest in Cl )
2NT = ? ( I assume natural and no interest in Cl )
3C = ? ( I assume 4+ Cl )
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
But we do know now that Opener's 3H!-jump splinter = 5+cd Sp AND 4+ cds Cl.
[ Likewise, I assume that a 3D!-jump would be a splinter as well ] .

So, I have another suggestion ( invention) for Responder after the 3H! splinter.
3S would agree Sp ( as I stated earlier ).
3NT = suggestion to play ( as you suggested in your reply ) .
And any bid 4C and higher would be a TURBO type RKC " showing" bid agreeing Clubs:
4C! = 0 or 3
4D! = 1 or 4
4H! = 2 - cQ
4NT! = 2 + cQ ( can't use 4S as it would be to play ) .

Then Opener could :
a) ask for the Cl Q ( next step afer 4C! or 4D! ) or
b ) specific K-ask ( 2nd step ) or
c) sign-off in 5C ( apparently off 2 key cards ) or possibly try to sign-off in 4S .

[kgr]

ONEferBRID, on Apr 7 2010, 08:03 PM, said:

Indeed, I am curious about the rest of the system.
For example, what would the following mean:

1S - 2C! ( GF, 3 cds Sp  or 4+cds Cl )
??
2D = ?

kgr said:

Waiting bid (mostly 5cS & 12-14; but can also be strong with D

2H = ?

kgr said:

5cS,4cH, forcing

2S = ? ( I assume extra length and no interest in Cl )

kgr said:

6cs 11-14

2NT = ? ( I assume natural and no interest in Cl )

kgr said:

15-19 balanced; 5cS, no 4cC

3C = ? ( I assume 4+ Cl )

kgr said:

15-19; 5cS, 4cC

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
But we do know now that Opener's 3H!-jump splinter = 5+cd Sp AND 4+ cds Cl.
[ Likewise, I assume that a 3D!-jump would be a splinter as well] .

kgr said:

Yes, 3D is also splinter

So, I have another suggestion ( invention) for Responder after the 3H! splinter.
3S would agree Sp ( as I stated earlier ).
3NT = suggestion to play ( as you suggested in your reply ) .
And any bid 4C and higher would be a TURBO type RKC " showing" bid agreeing Clubs:
4C! = 0 or 3
4D! = 1 or 4
4H! = 2 - cQ
4NT! = 2 + cQ ( can't use 4S as it would be to play ) .

Then Opener could :
a) ask for the Cl Q ( next step afer 4C! or 4D! ) or
b ) specific K-ask ( 2nd step ) or
c) sign-off in 5C ( apparently off 2 key cards ) or possibly try to sign-off in 4S.

kgr said:

Thanks for the suggestion. I don't really like it here because responder has unlimited strength. Not sure if it is ok to give KCs then. And I'm also looking for a more general solution for RKC for minor

see answers above