[Free]

National team event, imp scoring. We are V vs NV. The auction goes:
1♣ - Dbl - 1♦! - pass
2♥ - 2♠ - 4♥ - 5♦
pass? - pass - ...
(1♦ shows 4+♥ ; 2♥ shows a 4 card support)

Is opener's pass forcing?

[gwnn]

Doesn't sound forcing to me even though I admit the opps are bidding in a remarkably foolish way. Anyway opener tightly limited his hand, he has some clubs is minimum and 4 hearts. Responder will now show if he bid 4H to make or as a semi pressure bid. So I really don't think opener needs a forcing pass very much. Sometimes responder would need it (in a slightly different auction, say the 2S bidder bids 4S) but I wouldn't play that pass as forcing either.

[Cyberyeti]

Have either of you shown much more than flat 11 with 4 hearts opposite 6 count with 6 hearts by your previous bids ?

If not, I don't see why pass should be forcing.

At other vuls this is relatively easy, but the leap to 4♥ at red does imply a bit more, but if you do have a bad hand with a lot of hearts, partner might not like you to either bid or double and just wish to concede 400.

The test partner and I tend to apply is that around game level, a pass is forcing if we own at least half the pack, and I don't think we've guaranteed this here.

[Fluffy]

I vote for I don't know, this is the kind of situation where my partner and I have problems. With cuebid avaible partner should set up a forcing pass by cuebidding instead of bidding 4♥.

[jjbrr]

imo forcing pass in this auction would be retarded.

[billw55]

Quote

Responder will now show if he bid 4H to make or as a semi pressure bid.

Basically this.

I think it really depends how much strength is promised by partner's 1♦ and 4♥ calls. If he is showing a legit game force, then yes I think the pass is forcing. If it could be semi-preemptive, then no.

[phil_20686]

Free, on Mar 15 2010, 09:00 AM, said:

National team event, imp scoring. We are V vs NV. The auction goes:
1♣ - Dbl - 1♦! - pass
2♥ - 2♠ - 4♥ - 5♦
pass? - pass - ...
(1♦ shows 4+♥ ; 2♥ shows a 4 card support)

Is opener's pass forcing?

Normally when i have freely bid game vul vs not we treat pass as forcing. I generally think that the gains from being able to decide whther or not to bid 5h when partner is serious outweigh the gains from occasionally conceding 5dx=. I would not think this was forcing if they bid 4s, as that makes a lot more often in my experience.

[ArtK78]

At first glance, I was surprised that so many treat this pass as nonforcing. We are the side that opened the bidding and we bid a vul game against nonvul opponents. Yes, one opponent has shown a very good hand, but that should not change anything.

Still, opener did limit his hand. And it is possible that responder bid 4♥ on a weak distributional hand (even vul vs. not). So, I would say that the pass is nonforcing as opener has nothing else to show. Responder should know what to do. The auction is quite revealing (partner showed a full opening bid with a heart fit and did not double 5♦; RHO showed great strength with a good spade suit; and, for whatever reason that appeals to him, LHO decided that it is right to bid 5♦).

So, despite the fact that we bid a game vul vs. not, it seems that the pass is not forcing. But I would be surprised to see 5♦ undoubled as the final contract.

[phil_20686]

ArtK78, on Mar 15 2010, 10:04 AM, said:

Still, opener did limit his hand. And it is possible that responder bid 4♥ on a weak distributional hand (even vul vs. not). So, I would say that the pass is nonforcing as opener has nothing else to show.

Disagree strongly that opener has nothing else to show. He could have a wk nt with values in ther suit through to a prime 5-4-3-1 hand with aggressive values. They only qwuestions theoretically are

1) how often does a FP help make a better decision in 5H/5dx
2) how often will you concede 5dx as a result.

I suspect the gain from 1 out weighs 2 here. Probably different over 4s. However am surprised that in the FP sequence there is so much doubt here. Surely many have the meta agreement that if you freely bid game vul vs not you do not defend the 5 level undoubled?

[kfay]

jjbrr, on Mar 15 2010, 09:25 AM, said:

imo forcing pass in this auction would be retarded.

Palin's gonna get you for that!

[ArtK78]

phil_20686, on Mar 15 2010, 10:09 AM, said:

Surely many have the meta agreement that if you freely bid game vul vs not you do not defend the 5 level undoubled?

No doubt that you are correct. I do as well. In fact, my first reaction to this post was "WTP?"

But, in looking at it more closely, it did not seem so cut and dry. Mainly this is because one of the opponents is showing considerable strength with his double followed by a bid in a new suit. So this is not a clear cut "this is our hand and you are sacrificing" situation. You even mentioned that had the opponents bid game in the doubler's suit, then it might not be a forcing pass situation.

The fact that the opponents (or at least one of the opponents) has decided to bid game in another suit should not change that fact. We are, of course, assuming that the opponents are not idiots and that they are bidding in their own best interest.

Finally, as I mentioned in my prior post, while I consider this not to be a forcing pass situation, I would be surprised if the opponents wind up playing in 5♦ undoubled. Possible, yes. Likely? No.

[655321]

Agree with the cat in the hat.

[awm]

This is a time when I would call it a "semi-forcing" pass. Opener has limited his strength and his hand is fairly well described. Presuming that responder bid game to make, pass should be forcing; since the colors are unfavorable game was probably bid to make. Opener certainly can act under the presumption that pass is forcing.

However, only responder knows what he actually bid 4♥ on. If it's some sort of tactical call and he wasn't actually expecting to make it, then he can pass 5♦ out here.

[jjbrr]

Gotta get that extra 50 points!

[phil_20686]

jjbrr, on Mar 15 2010, 12:16 PM, said:

Gotta get that extra 50 points!

A bit disingenious:

The purpose of a FP is not to dble when its right so much as to be able to bid on when its right. I would guess there are a lot of semi positive 4h bids that might want to bid on when they know partner has prime cards, but definately do not want to vs a partner with some defense.

[jjbrr]

Our side will bid 5♥ in this auction an extremely small amount of the time.

[kgr]

I think that I played this one against your team in the closed room.
1♣-(1♠)-DBL-(Pass)
2♥-(2♠)-3♥-...???
 
I'm not sure how this continued, but I think that North started with 1♠ (also not sure).

[Free]

kgr, on Mar 16 2010, 04:32 PM, said:

I think that I played this one against your team in the closed room.
1♣-(1♠)-DBL-(Pass)
2♥-(2♠)-3♥-...???
 
I'm not sure how this continued, but I think that North started with 1♠ (also not sure).

That's definitely not worth mentioning!

[aguahombre]

gwnn, on Mar 15 2010, 08:07 AM, said:

Doesn't sound forcing to me even though I admit the opps are bidding in a remarkably foolish way. Anyway opener tightly limited his hand, he has some clubs is minimum and 4 hearts. Responder will now show if he bid 4H to make or as a semi pressure bid. So I really don't think opener needs a forcing pass very much. Sometimes responder would need it (in a slightly different auction, say the 2S bidder bids 4S) but I wouldn't play that pass as forcing either.

Let's back up to this one(which seems to nail it). Responder had a chance to clear up that this is our hand, and chose not to do so.

I wouldn't call the advancer's action "foolish", since I don't know what he held, but it certainly is strange to pass a t/o double and xfer at the one-level if he really has the substantial diamond length he now shows. Maybe the advancer thinks he is Al Roth, and was just waiting for the dust to settle before choosing the final contract.

Whatever, Responder to the opening bid has not created a cooperative auction at the 5-level, so Opener just has to get out of the way. His pass is not anything special. A double would have suggested some nice diamonds.

[kgr]

Free, on Mar 16 2010, 05:45 PM, said:

kgr, on Mar 16 2010, 04:32 PM, said:

I think that I played this one against your team in the closed room.
1♣-(1♠)-DBL-(Pass)
2♥-(2♠)-3♥-...???
 
I'm not sure how this continued, but I think that North started with 1♠ (also not sure).

That's definitely not worth mentioning!

I'm not sure about this bidding!! First verify how it did go, before killing them.
...Or were you playing NS at our table in this deal?