[kgr]

1♣-1♠
2♥-3♦
4♣-4♥
 
3♦ is 4th suit and GF (we play 2NT Lebensohl with weaker hands)
 
Is 4♥ control for ♣ or is 4♥ a suggestion to play?
...and more general: do you have general rules for this?

[dicklont]

It is a suggestion to play a slam.
Instead of using 4th suit responder could have supported with 3 or 4♥.
He decided to go through the fourth suit before showing support so he has a very good hand. This is a general rule.

Can you show minimum support of hearts after a reverse (Ingberman or Lebensohl)?
In that case 3♥ would also be slammish en preferable because it leaves room for cuebidding.

[kenrexford]

Definitely not strain. For me, RKCB for clubs.

[Fluffy]

3♥ is forcing, using 4SF when you have a dorcing descriptive bid avaible is a very very bad idea.

On any eperienced partnership I Expect 4♥ to be a cuebid for clubs (unless your surname ends in exford and you play a insane convention). Maybe Frances plays this as a moysan suggestion to play but I doubt it.

One of my golden rules: never ask when you can show

[FrancesHinden]

If 3H would have been forcing over 2H (which is consistent with 2NT as lebensohl) then 4H now is a cue for clubs.

[kgr]

3♥ would have been forcing.
But 3♥ would show a 4c♥? Can 4♥ not be a 3c♥ and a suggestion to play in 4-3?

[OleBerg]

kgr, on Mar 13 2010, 01:27 PM, said:

3♥ would have been forcing.
But 3♥ would show a 4c♥? Can 4♥ not be a 3c♥ and a suggestion to play in 4-3?

I would never assume this undiscussed.

And I wouldn't even prefer it as an agreement, but if partner insisted.

[mcphee]

Strange bidding, 2S 5+ forcing, 3C/H forcing, 2NT possibly weak, so 3D must be YO baby we have the goods and 4H a cue bid for C. I f I am not holding that hand I should be.

[helene_t]

I think it's unusual to play lebensohl and 4th suit combined. But if you do that, then 4th suit must show a flexible hand, asking opener to set trumps before cuebidding can start. So 4♣ sets trumps.

[kgr]

This was our not so successful bidding:

---

1♣-1♥! (1♥=T-Walsh, transfer ♠)
2♥-3♦ (2♥=reverse, denying 3c♠, 1♠ would have been 3c♠ and forcing) (3♦=4SF)
4♣-4♥
4NT-5♣ (5♣=4 or 1)
6♣-All pass
 
4♥ was meant by partner as a proposal to play, I took it as ♥-control for ♣.
Maybe proposal to play is better?

[helene_t]

Would 2♠ by North be forcing? I think I would bid 2♠ regardless. Second choice 3NT. Or 2NT followed by 3NT (not sure what the difference is). Or 2NT intending to pass 3♣. Not sure what South would bid over 2NT, though.

3♦ really should be a descriptive bid as it otherwise takes up too much bidding space. North's hand is not suitable for 3♦ as he can't tolerate a 4♣ bid.

[aguahombre]

the problem was the 3D bid. Since you already know you don't have a spade fit, you can use leben 2NT to deny 9 HCP, then land in 3NT. I would bet you can make it, even with the transportation issues. doubt the opps can double-dummy the defense, if there is a route to defeat.

Four Spades also works, if south bids 3S/2NT having already denied 3 of them.

[whereagles]

I guess after 3♦ opener will probably bid 3NT with a diamond stop or 3♠ with 3 cards. So the rebid of 4♣ should mean "I have none of those, thus a 6-4". In light of this, I think 4♥ makes more sense as proposal to play there, in the 4-3 fit.

Because the 4th suit seems to be in this case a tool to get to the STRAIN, not the level, if responder wanted to go club slamming he had the options to bid 3♣ (or even 4♣) instead.

Anyway, this is the sort of bid I would try to avoid without having had previous discussion. With the actual hand there was the alternative to bid 2♠, so I would have preferred that.

[Fluffy]

south is not close to 4♣ over 3♦, he should bid 3♠ or 3♥, he has 6 clubs, but they are awful, 3♠ bid its much better.

[CSGibson]

aguahombre, on Mar 13 2010, 11:10 AM, said:

the problem was the 3D bid.  Since you already know you don't have a spade fit, you can use leben 2NT to deny 9 HCP, then land in 3NT.  I would bet you can make it, even with the transportation issues.  doubt the opps can double-dummy the defense, if there is a route to defeat.

Four Spades also works, if south bids 3S/2NT having already denied 3 of them.

Most people play that, over reverses, lebensohl 2N followed by 3N shows a mild slam try. I would have bid 2♠, forcing 1 round, and then 3N.

[aguahombre]

no they don't

[CSGibson]

aguahombre, on Mar 13 2010, 02:22 PM, said:

no they don't

excuse me, but what I should have said is that most of the people in my part of the world play it that way, I have no reference for the rest of the world other than these forums, where I have also seen that suggested as a treatment.

edited: I see you're from approximately my part of the world. Ask the better players in your area how they play it.

[kgr]

helene_t, on Mar 13 2010, 08:04 PM, said:

Would 2♠ by North be forcing?

Yes

helene_t said:

I think I would bid 2♠ regardless. Second choice 3NT. Or 2NT followed by 3NT (not sure what the difference is).

3NT is to play. 2NT followed by 3NT is slam try 13-14.

helene_t said:

]Or 2NT intending to pass 3♣. Not sure what South would bid over 2NT, though.

I would bid 3♦, 4SF I think

[kgr]

CSGibson, on Mar 13 2010, 11:48 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Mar 13 2010, 02:22 PM, said:

no they don't

excuse me, but what I should have said is that most of the people in my part of the world play it that way, I have no reference for the rest of the world other than these forums, where I have also seen that suggested as a treatment.

2NT..3NT is 13-14 for us.

[kgr]

Fluffy, on Mar 13 2010, 10:03 PM, said:

south is not close to 4♣ over 3♦, he should bid 3♠ or 3♥, he has 6 clubs, but they are awful, 3♠ bid its much better.

right (maybe 3♥ is best. The suit is good enough and less risks for misunderstanding. ...3♠ is also good to avoid 5-6 misunderstanding. Theoretically best I think)