[Rodney26]

straube, on Feb 3 2010, 01:59 AM, said:

Rodney26, on Feb 3 2010, 01:39 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Feb 2 2010, 03:06 PM, said:

am I the only one who thinks OP means 3♥ is WEAK?

3♥ is definitely strong, so hopefully yes.

I was responder and had:

♠
♥T9x
♦KQT9xx
♣Q7xx

I raised 3♥ to 4; partner took another chomp at the apple by bidding 4♠ with:

♠AKJ8xx
♥AKQ6x
♦x
♣x

If I had something like the hand below, he'd want to be in six:

♠x
♥J9xx
♦Axxx
♣xxxx

In this case, 5♥ was too high. I suggested 4m was a cuebid for hearts so I couldn't hold that hand; partner didn't think so and I was surprised that the two partnerships I queried also didn't think so, but agreed with Pavlicek's definition.

Thanks everyone for the input -- much appreciated.

There's that rule about never raising partner's second suit with fewer than four.

But if you had a weak relay (3S) available...

1S-1N, 3H-3S, 4D (6/5)-4H now partner knows you're weak at least.

Sure, I'd love to have 4 ♥ for my bid, but what else? I'll survive 3NT today only because partner is going to pull; it's not going to go so well on the days he leaves me there. If he plays in a Moysian, the hand certainly seems suitable.

I don't know why you're posting a relay solution to a SAYC, 2/1 problem in the first place. The goal is to learn what folks play 4m as in the above framework.

[PhantomSac]

Straube you really don't see why being forced to bid 3S then 4C, going beyond 3N, in order to show a "2 fit" in spades is not good? Ideally you can show a "2 fit" in spades below 3N, so that you can judge whether to play 3N or 4S!

[straube]

Rodney26, on Feb 3 2010, 12:27 PM, said:

Sure, I'd love to have 4Hs for my bid, but what else? I'll survive 3NT today only because partner is going to pull; it's not going to go so well on the days he leaves me there. If he plays in a Moysian, the hand certainly seems suitable.

I don't know why you're posting a relay solution to a SAYC, 2/1 problem in the first place. The goal is to learn what folks play 4m as in the above framework.

I think partner can be expected to pull 3N quite frequently. If he doesn't, you're likely to be in as good a spot in 3N as in your Moysian. Afraid of clubs? Clubs are just as dangerous in the Moysian as in 3N because the wrong hand will be tapped. Also you're up a level higher. Moysian's work best when dummy has shortness opposite a weak fragment so that dummy can control that suit and provide ruffs; that isn't the situation here.

Sorry if you weren't interested in a relay solution. I thought the door to artificiality had been opened after many posters used 1S-1N, 3H-4m conventionally (my vote was actually natural!). I was suggesting that if we wanted an artificial solution, then why not use a relay? The basic idea of using a 1-step as a weakness/waiting bid comes up over and over again in bridge. I know of people who play 1D-1H, 3C-3D as a waiting bid. If they were jazzed about diamonds, they'd bid 4D or something. 3D just gives opener more room to describe his hand while not sounding overly positive about anything. Others, too use 1C-1S, 2D-2H as a weakness relay; they hope partner can show 3-card support for spades and even play 2S!

PhantomSac said:

Straube you really don't see why being forced to bid 3S then 4C, going beyond 3N, in order to show a "2 fit" in spades is not good? Ideally you can show a "2 fit" in spades below 3N, so that you can judge whether to play 3N or 4S!

Sure, I see the downside. Of course, the whole problem is ridiculous. We're at 3H and have no idea whether partner is 5/4 or 5/5 or 6/4. We wouldn't be in this mess if we were playing a strong club system (etc.) and left enough room to sort this out. On the whole, I like a weak relay here as the best chance of sorting things out.

ONEferBRID said:

This may be the kiss of death... but I like it !

No. I appreciate that someone likes it!

[ONEferBRID]

Straube has shown in interesting way for Opener to show ( among other things ) if he is 7/5, 6/5 or 5/5 via better utilization of Responder's 3S! rebid as a relay.

I was able to modify this concept to my own liking of Responder's RKC "showing" as acceptance of Hts with 4+ cards ( Josh will hate it ).
I changed the meanings of Responder's 3rd bid in his sequence:
1S-1N, 3H-3S!, 3N- ?? (where 3S! essentially denies 4 cards Hts).
[ I won't go into those replies now, but among other things, it allows for Responder to show a long minor, not solid, no outside entries... ie. a suit that can only take tricks as trump ].

Anyway, it frees up the following:

1S-1N, 3H- ??
....... 3NT = stop(s) in both minors; dislike both Majors
.......RKC-showing for Hts w/ 4+ cards:
................4C! = 0 or 3
................4D! = 1 ( 4 impossible )
................4H! = 2 - hQ
................4S! = 2 + hQ

So let's take as an example:
Opener     Responder
♠AKJ8xx.......x
♥AKQ6x........T 9 x x
♦x................K Q T 9 x
♣x................Q x x

1S - 1NT!
3H - 4C! ( zero key cards )
4H = to play ... missing 2 Aces

whereas:
Responder with
♠x
♥J9xx
♦Axxx
♣xxxx

1S - 1NT!
3H - 4D! ( 1 key card )
6H

I couldn't have managed this without Straube's 3S! relay idea.

[Rodney26]

Quote

I think partner can be expected to pull 3N quite frequently.  If he doesn't, you're likely to be in as good a spot in 3N as in your Moysian.  Afraid of clubs?  Clubs are just as dangerous in the Moysian as in 3N because the wrong hand will be tapped.  Also you're up a level higher.  Moysian's work best when dummy has shortness opposite a weak fragment so that dummy can control that suit and provide ruffs; that isn't the situation here.

3NT has far more problems than the likely run of the clubs (which is a fairly obvious problem). Entries to this hand don’t seem particularly likely in NT. You’d be fortunate to get one and a lot of days you’ll get none. You’re right that a club tap might be effective, but it won’t always be. Maybe partner has stiff ace or king; maybe partner can counter the tap by pitching some of dummy’s clubs on high spades. Then of course there are the times when partner does have more than four hearts. All and all, I think 4♥ is fairly clear.

Quote

Sure, I see the downside.  Of course, the whole problem is ridiculous.  We're at 3H and have no idea whether partner is 5/4 or 5/5 or 6/4.  We wouldn't be in this mess if we were playing a strong club system (etc.) and left enough room to sort this out. 

Again, we’re in the 2/1 thread and you’re saying a problem is ridiculous because we’re not playing a strong club. If (4m) comes back at me after I’ve opened the 6-5-1-1 hand, I’d be a lot better placed having opened 1♠. You’re probably right that a Precision auction will be preferable if the opponents are quiet. Playing 2/1, I think I’d open 2♣ with this hand playing against known meek opponents for similar reasons (I’m guessing partner wouldn’t have moved after 2♣-2♦-2♠-3♦-3♥-4♥).

Just please keep in mind that strong club and relay systems are not for everyone. If you play in one established partnership at least once a week and actively discuss agreements and situational bridge, I’d absolutely recommend working on a souped up Precision model. However, if you play with a lot of different people in the US, working off BWS seems most prudent so you have a lot of default agreements in place.

[jdonn]

This thread has become wow

[awm]

Well the choice of methods has contributed to the problem here. Playing standard american, there is not so much need for a "good raise of hearts" because the 1NT response is much more limited. Playing a method like gazzilli solves this problem completely. Some 2/1 players use an artificial 3♣ jump shift where one of the possibilities is a 5+/4 majors hand (so the 3♥ jump shows 5/5) -- this solves a lot of problems in this sequence too. Evidently the question assumes none of the above.

My preference is natural because I think that is the normal default agreement. Perhaps a good general rule is "game before slam" and there are many hands where sorting out which game is best can be quite awkward here. It's true that 4m cuebid helps you on some slam auctions, but you will be guessing a lot more often at the game level, and you may even miss some slams where there is a 6-3 fit in responder's hidden minor.

[jdonn]

I like a version of the 3♣ multi jump shift. It would be very reasonable in that case to play 4m is a cuebid if partner showed 5 hearts but natural if partner showed just 4 hearts (even moreso because in the case where he showed just 4 hearts responder had a chance to bid 3♥ naturally over 3♣).

[straube]

Rodney26,
I said the problem was ridiculous, but I never thought or intended to say that you were ridiculous. I play 2/1 far more frequently than Precision for the reasons you stated and I've faced this same situation more than I would like. I do play a lot of relays to get myself out of the jams that natural bidding creates and I thought that bids similar to Ingbermann and Wolff sign off (relays) were ok to discuss on this forum. I meant my suggestion and criticism in a constructive way and I'm sorry if this didn't come across.

ONEferBrid,
I don't care for your relay sheme because RKC for hearts is not as important as some other features.

jdonn,
What do you mean exactly? It feels like you are calling me or us stupid and I hope that's not what you mean.

[straube]

awm, on Feb 4 2010, 12:29 PM, said:

Well the choice of methods has contributed to the problem here. Playing standard american, there is not so much need for a "good raise of hearts" because the 1NT response is much more limited. Playing a method like gazzilli solves this problem completely. Some 2/1 players use an artificial 3♣ jump shift where one of the possibilities is a 5+/4 majors hand (so the 3♥ jump shows 5/5) -- this solves a lot of problems in this sequence too. Evidently the question assumes none of the above.

My preference is natural because I think that is the normal default agreement. Perhaps a good general rule is "game before slam" and there are many hands where sorting out which game is best can be quite awkward here. It's true that 4m cuebid helps you on some slam auctions, but you will be guessing a lot more often at the game level, and you may even miss some slams where there is a 6-3 fit in responder's hidden minor.

How does Gazzilli work? I've used 1S-1N, 2N as an artificial GF
I've also wondered whether 1S-1N, 3D ought to show hearts...perhaps as GI+

[jdonn]

I didn't call you anything, and I didn't call anyone stupid. All you are being is sensitive and paranoid

[Apollo81]

awm, on Feb 4 2010, 12:29 PM, said:

My preference is natural because I think that is the normal default agreement.

Another general "rule" that may support this is that each person should get at least one chance to bid his long suit, although the crowd will say that chance is 5♣.

[Fluffy]

Its becoming very popular that games before sams thing, but it doesn't have to be always true.

I play that 3M-4m is always cuebid, with some exceptions, so far I don't recall missing the natural call ever.

If your meta-rules tell you this is natural its ok, but I am sure that playing it as cuebid has a much higher appearence frequency, and I'd even say that it is also more useful when it happens. How often do you impose a minor over partner's major 2 suiter?

The way I was taught 2/1 jump swifts promise a 5-5 hand (condensing semi-bal hands on 2NT), I have never thought about why, but I Am happy with it.

[straube]

Fluffy, on Feb 4 2010, 04:26 PM, said:

Its becoming very popular that games before sams thing, but it doesn't have to be always true.

I play that 3M-4m is always cuebid, with some exceptions, so far I don't recall missing the natural call ever.

If your meta-rules tell you this is natural its ok, but I am sure that playing it as cuebid has a much higher appearence frequency, and I'd even say that it is also more useful when it happens. How often do you impose a minor over partner's major 2 suiter?

The way I was taught 2/1 jump swifts promise a 5-5 hand (condensing semi-bal hands on 2NT), I have never thought about why, but I Am happy with it.

I like that, as long as 2N is GF. What do you do with a 6/4?

[awm]

For what it's worth, over 10000 hands I have responder holding 4♥ about 2373 times, 5+♥ 1267 times, 6m without four hearts 2876 times. Of course, some of the 6m hands can perhaps be handled by bidding 3♠ on doubleton, or might be suitable for guessing 3NT. Roughly two-thirds of the four heart hands have 6-9 hcp and are probably suited to a direct raise to 4♥. Since this sim doesn't give any real handle on the gains/losses of various approaches I don't think it means much, but it does indicate that the frequencies are in the same ballpark.

Gazzilli is a method whereby opener's 2♣ rebid after 1M-1NT or 1♥-1♠ is forcing one round and shows either a natural club suit or any strong 1M opening (typically 17+ hcp is the cutoff but I've seen people use different ranges). Responder normally bids 2♦ over this with points for game opposite the strong option, with other non-jump continuations showing a weak hand. For the most part gazzilli is a big win when opener has the 17+ hand (you gain a lot of space) and a small loss when opener has the major/club two-suiter (you can't play in 2♣ any more and some "invitational club raise" auctions can become more awkward). There are sketchy details of this convention available online; the most complete treatment I've seen is in the Ambra notes (available via Dan Neill's page). Other consequences of Gazzilli include 1M-1X-2N being artificial and forcing (typically showing a strong 6/4) and jumps to the three-level in a new suit being non-forcing (typically 5/5 hands with mild extras).

[mike777]

awm, on Feb 4 2010, 08:38 PM, said:

For what it's worth, over 10000 hands I have responder holding 4♥ about 2373 times, 5+♥ 1267 times, 6m without four hearts 2876 times. Of course, some of the 6m hands can perhaps be handled by bidding 3♠ on doubleton, or might be suitable for guessing 3NT. Roughly two-thirds of the four heart hands have 6-9 hcp and are probably suited to a direct raise to 4♥. Since this sim doesn't give any real handle on the gains/losses of various approaches I don't think it means much, but it does indicate that the frequencies are in the same ballpark.

Gazzilli is a method whereby opener's 2♣ rebid after 1M-1NT or 1♥-1♠ is forcing one round and shows either a natural club suit or any strong 1M opening (typically 17+ hcp is the cutoff but I've seen people use different ranges). Responder normally bids 2♦ over this with points for game opposite the strong option, with other non-jump continuations showing a weak hand. For the most part gazzilli is a big win when opener has the 17+ hand (you gain a lot of space) and a small loss when opener has the major/club two-suiter (you can't play in 2♣ any more and some "invitational club raise" auctions can become more awkward). There are sketchy details of this convention available online; the most complete treatment I've seen is in the Ambra notes (available via Dan Neill's page). Other consequences of Gazzilli include 1M-1X-2N being artificial and forcing (typically showing a strong 6/4) and jumps to the three-level in a new suit being non-forcing (typically 5/5 hands with mild extras).

my partners never seem to have 17+ so I would think the negatives out way the positive.


Pard cannot have a balanced 17+ for me.

BART 1s=1nt=2c...helps on some of the unbalancedhands
1h=1nt=2c=? impossible 2s helps on some of these deals.


with all of that said alot of my friends do seem to love Gaz.

[FrancesHinden]

straube, on Feb 4 2010, 06:55 PM, said:

I've also wondered whether 1S-1N, 3D ought to show hearts...perhaps as GI+

You've wondered? I've been playing for years that 1S - 1NT - 3C is game forcing with diamonds, 3D is game forcing with hearts, 3H is 5-5 invitational, 1S - 1NT - 3S is forcing (1S - 1NT - 2C is artificial, and includes black two-suiters). That solves all these problems. But perhaps is also not relevant to this thread.

FWIW I prefer 4C as a heart slam try over 3H rather than as natural because it's a much more likely hand type and more useful when it comes up. (5C is natural.)

[Fluffy]

Adam I'd take a new suit at the 4 level opposide a 2 suiter to be 7 card with good honnors rather than any 6 carder. My understanding of such a bid is: ok you have 2 suits, but we are gonna play this, rather than... ok you have 2 suits, but what if we play this?

I might be biased because I always play MPs and play 3NT hoping for some luck.