Is it Forcing?? Responder is a passed hand
#1
Posted 2010-February-04, 12:47
Having played and taught for almost 50 years I think I may have a Bridge 101 question that I can find no answer for on any google search on: Responder is a "passed hand", what is forcing here?
You hold a fairly flat 7 HCP hand and as dealer with T9x KT986 JTx Kx..the auction proceeds: p-p-1C-p-1H-p-1S...
Pard has opened a club and rebid 1S...is 1S forcing..what type of hand can p have that he rebids on the one level, not pushing you! I passed and P ?? and says he tht 1S forcing and I stated..."I am a passed hand"!.nothing more was discussed.
The question in my mind was what HCP value can pard have for a simple 1s bid knowing I am a passed hand? Surely he cannot be better than 17 or flat with 15-17. Is he distributional and could not find a jump bid to prod me on? I came up with a flat 0 of answers why I shd bid on...The board was not a disaster, but of course pard had a flat 18 and I mean flat, decided 1S was better than a jump to 2NT especially holding AJX of Hs....
We know his bid was wrong---please rate my pass as to wrong or right
#2
Posted 2010-February-04, 12:56
With a flat 18 he should rebid 2NT, and presumably you'd have methods of uncovering the 4-4 ♠ fit.
bed
#3
Posted 2010-February-04, 12:57
#4
Posted 2010-February-04, 13:03
I think in SAYC it is NF.
So perhaps you should specify the context a little more.
#5
Posted 2010-February-04, 13:05
If partner is 4-6 your hand might also be quite useful, like Axxx A Qx AQxxxx is a very good 3N.
etc etc. In general you would only pass 1S with 5-6 and exactly 3 spades.
Also partner could have some 18 counts, like 4135, that didn't want to jump shift with a stiff in your suit.
#6
Posted 2010-February-04, 13:06
Awm: I prefer to rebid 1S with 18-19 balanced and 4 spades.
/thread
#8
Posted 2010-February-04, 13:16
Given that it was a third seat opener, 1S there shows a full opening hand that is not balanced since the rebid wasn't 1NT. Responder can do with that information what he thinks is best, including Pass. With two kings instead of 7HCP in quacks, and a pretty good five card suit, and one of the kings in partner's suit, I would like to keep the bidding open over 1S. Pass is not a clear error.
#9
Posted 2010-February-04, 13:51
My real answer is...there is no real answer--Y'all answer based on what your perception of bridge is here and there is no clear cut rule. It is just one of those bridge "things" akin to "who shot JFK"?
#10
Posted 2010-February-04, 13:58
However, if you had some flat 18-19 and 4S you should also have sufficient gadgets to jump to 2nt and find a 4-4 fit or play in Hs...
FYI-- the pard I was playing with was Australian so I was totally screwed without knowing it......
The easy solution is you and pard must agree if as a passed hand you can pass openers new suit rebid at the 1 level..regardless of Responders HCP..
#11
Posted 2010-February-04, 14:43
Onedown, on Feb 4 2010, 02:58 PM, said:
However, if you had some flat 18-19 and 4S you should also have sufficient gadgets to jump to 2nt and find a 4-4 fit or play in Hs...
FYI-- the pard I was playing with was Australian so I was totally screwed without knowing it......
The easy solution is you and pard must agree if as a passed hand you can pass openers new suit rebid at the 1 level..regardless of Responders HCP..
Did you catch that the second post of phantomsac's was not serious?
Read his first post only.
bed
#12
Posted 2010-February-04, 16:28
You should bid the same way as if you had not passed - for me that would mean that 1♠ is not forcing but I would only pass with a bare minimum and you have a bit extra so can try 1NT. Pass is not terrible though. The only major error here is thinking that being a passed hand could possibly make a difference to whether 1♠ is forcing.
#13
Posted 2010-February-04, 16:32
I don't think there are any standard systems in which 1♠ is forcing. It just denies a hand that could GF. This means that responder can pass with an absolute minimum but not with more than that.
This is true in English Acol, SA, Biedermeijer, DBS and probably all other standard systems with a natural or semi-natural 1♣ opening.
#14
Posted 2010-February-04, 16:39
#16
Posted 2010-February-04, 17:25
peachy said:
People who play this sequence as forcing do so for the same reason as people play bids as forcing in other sequences: they want to be able to explore the right contract without consuming a level of bidding and without the risk of partner passing. A secondary benefit is that they can use a jump to 2♠ to show a different hand-type. Whether these benefits justify the disadvantages is another question.
#17
Posted 2010-February-04, 17:26
#18
Posted 2010-February-04, 18:29
gnasher, on Feb 4 2010, 06:25 PM, said:
peachy said:
People who play this sequence as forcing do so for the same reason as people play bids as forcing in other sequences: they want to be able to explore the right contract without consuming a level of bidding and without the risk of partner passing. A secondary benefit is that they can use a jump to 2♠ to show a different hand-type. Whether these benefits justify the disadvantages is another question.
My note was incomplete = should have included "barring specific agreement for it to be forcing".
#19
Posted 2010-February-04, 21:01
The fact that you are a passed hand means that your 1H bid was not forcing.
The fact that you are a passed hand has nothing to do with whether partner's 1S is forcing. Your 1H can be on six points whether you are a passed hand or not, so this has no bearing.
Playing in the US, and playing strong no trumps, I have never played with anyone who wanted to play the 1S as forcing. With weak notrumpers there could be more of a point, maybe, since after 1C-1H-1S opener will be strong or shapely or both. But if we restrict to US and strong NT, then it is not anywhere near fifty-fifty as you suggest in one of your posts. NF is the normal interpretation.
Partner, on this auction, could have a 4=3=1=5 hand with 17 or 18 points. What would you like him to do after 1C-1H? A game forcing 2S without knowing of the heart fit seems extravagant. 2H would be an underbid, 3H really should be on four card support. Of course he could also have crap. Just rebid 1NT and see what happens.
It's true that the 1S will not often be passed. Mostly it gets passed when the 1H was a bit of a stretch, responder being short in clubs. Or with a flattish six count. Not often passed but not forcing is pretty playable and really it's standard from everything I have seen.
#20
Posted 2010-February-05, 02:13
PhantomSac, on Feb 4 2010, 02:06 PM, said:
Hey I agree with.... me.
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit