[EarlPurple]

Cave_Draco, on Jul 11 2004, 02:42 AM, said:

whereagles, on Jul 10 2004, 06:16 PM, said:

Nobody cares anymore about side 4-card majors when preempting. I don't think pard is entitled to draw that inference unless your agreements specifically forbid the side spades.

Still, remember this is matchpoints. At imps it's a clear pass (at least to me).

For an Advanced/Expert player... fair comment,

For a Beginner/Intermediate? I would maintain that Weak Twos should be disciplined!

The exact limits of a Weak Two are open to partnership agreement, but if I am playing with a Beginner/Intermediate player; my partner can trust that I have:

6-10hcp, mostly in the named suit.
6 cards in the named suit.
Less than 4 cards in the other major.

Yes, I will relax the discipline with a more advanced player, but I think Beginners/Intermediates appreciate a partner that they can trust.

I think I have to disagree: Beginners and Intermediates should be taught to pre-empt more aggressively.

They should learn the principle of "in quick out quick". If you'd opened 2♥ on this hand you wouldn't have a problem now because you've "shown your hand".

JT8xxx is actually quite offensive. I'll take a likely 3 tricks with it while I'll take nothing with it defending. That is different from AQxxxx where I will usually take 1 and sometimes 2 tricks in defence with it if partner has no fit.

[nikos59]

I assume i just stepped in, because I would have opened the
hand with a 2H.

Well, I would bid 3H.

nikos

[Chamaco]

nikos59, on Jul 11 2004, 11:40 AM, said:

I assume i just stepped in, because I would have opened the
hand with a 2H.

Well, I would bid 3H.

nikos

If you bid 3H here, which promises either an opening hand in hcp or a 7 loser hand in distribution, 2 things may happen:

1- pard has a minimum opening hand and bids 4H, which is not a candidate to make while 3C was probably gooing down

2- pard has less than this, the hand belongs to the opponent (RHO passed with 14/15 hcp in misfit), they double you and you get a zero anyways.


As I said beffore, there is no chance after this sequence to stop in 3H if it is the right contract, because, when your pard has the hand that alklowa 3H to make, he raises to 4, since he assumes you have a better hand for your balancing.

Another bad thing, more subtle, may happen if you start balancing these kind of hands (even if you get the occasioinal lucky strike):
pard will never know what type of hand you have when you balance.
If you keep a firm agreement on strength of balancing, you make life easier to your pard to accept game invitations (and sometimes even slams!) when you reopen after preempts; if your range can vary so much, pard will never know what to do.

Bidding 3H shows lack of discipline and of sense of partnership.
I agree with all the posters who point out that opening 2H would be recommended and would have avoided this problem.

[nikos59]

To Chamaco: Which "discipline"? This is a clearly aberrant situation that
I was found at, I mean having passed with a clear
opening bid. To be consistent, I have to show my suit.

For instance, if you bid 1NT with 20 points aren't you
later going to show the extra ace if you can? It is the
same here: Someone passed with a sixth heart,
he then gave me his cards, I cannot not show the
sixth heart. After the board, if there's a disaster,
I explain to pard.

[Chamaco]

nikos59, on Jul 11 2004, 01:43 PM, said:

To Chamaco: Which "discipline"? This is a clearly aberrant situation that
I was found at, I mean having passed with a clear
opening bid. To be consistent, I have to show my suit.

You do not have an opening hand.
This is a "weak 2", a semipreemptive bid which does not promise full openign values.

even when one decides to evaluate an opening hand just in terms of distribution and not hcp (which can also be relatively dangerous because your pard will overrate your defensive strength), the criterion universally accepted is that a 7-loser hand has the playing strength (in offense) of a regular opening hand.

This is a 9-loser hand, not even close to an opening hand: it is a weak 2 at most, and a bad one.
Having not opened weak 2, we have lost the chance to show our feature (heart length and little else).

If you like to consider these 9-losers hands as opening hands, I won't argue with you (but I would if I were you pard ), but in a Beginner-intermediate section, I think people learning bridge should know that this one is not even close to an opening hand and not even close to have the strength (no matter if hcp or distrubution) to balance at the 3 level.

[nikos59]

To Chamaco: sorry, bad expression: I had an opening *weak 2* hand,
and I have lied to pard by passing.
The rest of my dissertation stays unchanged

n

[Chamaco]

nikos59, on Jul 11 2004, 01:52 PM, said:

To Chamaco: sorry, bad expression: I had an opening *weak 2* hand,
and I have lied to pard by passing.
The rest of my dissertation stays unchanged

n

Nikos, i know you are a good player, and we both agree that the problem stems from not opening a weak 2.

I just state that if I balance here, my pard will always raise me if he has a decent hand (when 3H would make but 4H goes down), and he will pass when he is minium and opps have the balance of points waiting to double us.

Bidding here just puts my pard in trouble. The next time I balance he will never know if I have an opening hand or just a competitive hand.

the usual rule is that balancing at the 3 level shows a full opening hand in hcpo or distribution.

Quote

For instance, if you bid 1NT with 20 points aren't you
later going to show the extra ace if you can? 

This is much different here: the difference between my hand and and the requirements for balancing is not 1 ace only, but 2 tricks (9 losers vs 7 losers).
The distortion is much bigger.
I would forgive my pard for not opening a weak 2 with a so-and-so suit, opposite an unpassed pard; but I won't forgive him for balancing at the 3 level.
In this case better pass, there are still good chances that we get a good score, while overbidding by 2 tricks your hand is much more likely to bring misfortune.
Bridge is playing the odds.

Finally, one more thing for "intermediate beginners": never try to recover a bidding mistake you previously made, if you at a high level (3 or more). Most often than not pard will not understand the bidding, he may run to a different suit, or simply you may end in an hopeless contract.
If you misbid before and you are at a high level, just accept it.
By the way, trying to recover from a bad bid and hoping that your pard understands, is likely to be sanctioned by the tournament director, if the opps call him.

[whereagles]

3H may be undisciplined and horrible for partnership trust and all that, but you know what? I have the feeling it's the winning bid. I prefer to play the hand now and apologize later, than being drowned with remorse for failing to bid 3H when it was the good move.

Besides, this is matchpoints. At MPs, if there's the slightest chance the hand is yours, you have to bid something. If it went

(1C) pass (3C) pass
pass ??

wouldn't you balance 3H now? Why not doing the same here?

[luke warm]

Chamaco, on Jul 11 2004, 03:58 PM, said:

I would forgive my pard for not opening a weak 2 with a so-and-so suit, opposite an unpassed pard; but I won't forgive him for balancing at the 3 level.

whatever my partner does, i've found it best to remember 2 things... 1) he acted in good faith, and 2) in his judgement he did the right thing at the time

none of us are always right, but we're often wrong... forgiving partner is what the game is all about, and we can only hope he is as forgiving as we are

this is why i refuse to play with (more than once, anyway) a person who doesn't understand that 2 opponents are plenty, nobody needs 3, and that post mortems are best handled in private

chamaco said:

No I would not balance that hand after 1C-p-3C preemptive.
Never bid over a preempt with a preemptive hand.

Besides, I prefer to lose one board than one partner.

why can't you trust that your partner did what looked right at the time? why can't he trust that you did the same? there has to be room for judgement, and anytime judgement is exercised, errors can be made... besides, there's nothing that says balancing after 1C : p : 3C is done as a preempt over a preempt

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Jul 11 2004, 02:50 PM, said:

3H may be undisciplined and horrible for partnership trust and all that, but you know what? I have the feeling it's the winning bid. I prefer to play the hand now and apologize later, than being drowned with remorse for failing to bid 3H when it was the good move.

Besides, this is matchpoints. At MPs, if there's the slightest chance the hand is yours, you have to bid something. If it went

(1C) pass (3C) pass
pass ??

wouldn't you balance 3H now? Why not doing the same here?

No I would not balance that hand after 1C-p-3C preemptive.
I do not like to bid over a preempt with a preemptive hand.

But I would be more tempted at MP than the hand we are discussing.
The situation is VERY different: in this case (1C-p-3C) we know they have a fit and we have more reasons to fight. After the 3C opening preempt and all pass we have no idea if they have a fit or not.



Besides, I prefer to lose one board than one partner.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Quote

Besides, this is matchpoints. At MPs, if there's the slightest chance the hand is yours, you have to bid something.

Put down this way, this is a wrong concept.
At MP you compete violently for the partscore if you are sure opps have a fit, and especuially at the 2 level.
The old adage "the 3 level belongs to the opponents" often holds true.
Besides, the point is to compete when you think it is right: here, even in those cases where 3H makes, yout pard will raise to 4 because he will think your hand is stronger.

It is lunacy to expect partner pass our balancing if he holds an opening hand: he is supposed to bid game if he holds an opening hand that was not strong enough to bid over 3C.

If he does not hold that hand, and he is weaker, RHO will double because he has 14/15 + hcp in misfit with pard.
Bidding 3H is against odds: you may hit a lucky hand once every 20 hand like these, but you lose 19 out of 20 hands and break ptship trust.

Discipline may make you lose one board once in a while at MP, but will win many other boards and will be respectful of parttner.

This is a very important concept here in a Beginner-intermediate forum.

[Chamaco]

luke warm, on Jul 11 2004, 03:04 PM, said:

none of us are always right, but we're often wrong...

I forgive a pard that makes a mistake, a revoke, or whatever.
believe me, I understand all kinds of errors.

The only time time I do not forgive is when a pard breaks grossly the agreements and he is aware of it: if he does that, he starts to play alone and not as a couple: he is bidding only his cards and not giving me a choiice to say my word on the hand. He is being plainly selfish and unrespectful.
And he loses my trust.
Even if the board comes out with a plus, I will not trust him in the next boards.

I accept it when he makes a "judgment bid", distorting a bit this hand.
But here the distortion is abnormal, by 2 tricks. It is like making a reverse when you have an 11 point count; or bidding a slam 2 aces off.

My pard should respect me and bid according to our agreements, if he has some bridge knowledge.

I would forgive a 3H bid only in 2 cases:

1) he took the wrong bid out of the bidding box (lapsus manus)

2) he is a beginner and has no idea of bridge. In this case I would be very patient to explain why 3 H is wrong.

In all other cases it only shows selfish bidding.

[whereagles]

> No I would not balance that hand after 1C-p-3C preemptive.
> Never bid over a preempt with a preemptive hand.

That's probably not what you wanted to say xxx KQJxxx Kxx x is a preemptive hand and you'll want to bid 3H after

(3C) pass pass ??

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Jul 11 2004, 03:19 PM, said:

> No I would not balance that hand after 1C-p-3C preemptive.
> Never bid over a preempt with a preemptive hand.

That's probably not what you wanted to say   xxx KQJxxx Kxx x is a preemptive hand and you'll want to bid 3H after

(3C) pass pass ??

You are right, my expression was not precise.
The hand you show is close to a 7.5 losers hand.
With a 7 losers hand (playing strength of an opener) I have no objectioin to a 3-level balancing so this is a good stretch, even if the hand has preemptive features.

But with a 9-loser hand (the original posted hand) I think it is sheer lunacy.

However, I have edited my post on the 1C-p-3C sequence, discussing the main difference with a 3 level opening preempt (in one case there is a sure club fit, in the other not).

[whereagles]

Well, don't get me wrong... You're probably right in that 3H is too risky It's just that I feel an overwhelming urge to bid it, and I usually follow my instincts, eheh.

I wouldn't blame a partner of mine who bid it, for I know he had a difficult decision. The best thing you can say to partner when he takes a wrong view is "I probably would have done the same."

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Jul 11 2004, 05:30 PM, said:

Well, don't get me wrong... You're probably right in that 3H is too risky It's just that I feel an overwhelming urge to bid it, and I usually follow my instincts, eheh.

I wouldn't blame a partner of mine who bid it, for I know he had a difficult decision. The best thing you can say to partner when he takes a wrong view is "I probably would have done the same."

Regardless of what i said about forgiving or not (anyone who knows me knows I never get upset), the point is that here it is ABSOLUTELY NOT a matter of hand evaluation.

I agree when you refer to a difficult bid where you may stretch by *one* trick.
Here you are stretching by *2* tricks. (bidding a 9 loser hand as if it was a 7 loser hand).
As I said, it is like reversing with 11-12 hcp or bidding a slam off 2 aces.

It is not anymore a matter of evaluation, it is just grossly overestimating the hand.

If a pard bids with this hand, I will never say "I'd bid this way too". Probably I would not get upset, but I'd spend at least one hour of our next post mortem to explain to him- very nicely - why bidding anything with that hand is hopelessly wrong.

Bridge is partnership game: the first thing my partner should think there is: "What shall my partner do if I bid something?"

This message should be very clear to the beginner-intermediates who read this.

Discipline, discipline, discipline: even if you have a long suit, sometimes you just can't bid it, if the level is too high. Even if you are at Matchpoints.
Sometimes not bidding it leads to a poor score, it's life, but one should play the odds and see how many times passing this bid out will keep him out of trouble.

Just to avoid misunderstandings, "DISCIPLINE" does not mean "be rigid": you can use your judgment, and I love partners who use judgment, but only in CLOSE decisions. You may overbid by one trick sometimes, it's ok.
Not here: here bidding overbids by 2 tricks, it's not at all a close decision, it's only a matter of will power, to restrain oneself from bidding only because we have more than 5 cards in a major.

I recommend all the articles by Mike Lawrence on Bidding over preempts.

[whereagles]

Quote

If a pard bids with this hand, I will never say "I'd bid this way too". Probably I would not get upset, but I'd spend at least one hour of our next post mortem to explain to him- very nicely - why bidding anything with that hand is hopelessly wrong.

I don't think it's a good idea to convince pard his decision was "hopelessly wrong", when he tried to do his best in a difficult situation. If something, I'd tell him he was "a bit over-optimistic". Later his own judgement would assimilate the learnings.

Besides, if dummy comes up with

AJTx
KQxx
x
xxxx

3H is far from hopeless

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Jul 11 2004, 08:01 PM, said:

I don't think it's a good idea to convince pard his decision was "hopelessly wrong", when he tried to do his best in a difficult situation. If something, I'd tell him he was "a bit over-optimistic". Later his own judgement would assimilate the learnings.

Besides, if dummy comes up with

AJTx
KQxx
x
xxxx

3H is far from hopeless

1) If pard has such a hand he must bid 4H over you reopening.
If pard has a decent hand he cannot stop in 3H.
If you agree with pard's pass of 3H here, you will miss many games when you actually balance with a real opening hand.
That's all the point of the post.

If my pard reopens 3H and I hold such a hand I may even think of slam: pard must be short in clubs, with as little as 2 aces and some spade honors, slam is easily on (barring club ruffs).
If instead my pard can reopen with nothing, I'll never know where to stop.

2) This should be clear to the beginner-intermediates: NEVER PLAY PARD FOR THE PERFECT HAND. This is a well known rule

3) If pard has the hand you posted it may be more prudent to call the director (2 J's of spades in the deck ).

4) I will tell my pard, VERY NICELY, that despite his efforts to do his best, his choice was hopelessly wrong.
Not to discourage him, but to make sure that he really understand that this situation is nowhere close to a "judgment" situation.
Everytime I have told to a beginner partner that his choice was a real mistake, with a smile, I have seen that they were very responsive.
If I tell him that he was "a bit optimistic" he may believe that there was any chance for that to be a good bid.
I prefer to be clear about that, but with a big smile on my face

[nikos59]

To Chamaco:

You say that if pard holds

AJTx
KQxx
x
xxxx

over the reopening, he must bid 4H.

This (i.e. the "he must bid" part) is going too far, isn't it? I mean, hasn't partner seen us passing? Why on earth should he be keen on hanging us for reopening
as a passed hand, i.e. for contesting the partial? Has this pard
never played matchpoints? (I assume the original setting was
matchpoints). Can't this partner count to 13? Because any counting
partner knows that not only me but also the fourth player is short
at clubs.

In my humble opinion, any sensible partner holding the above hand will immediately guess that most likely points at the table are 10 apiece (give or take a jack) for everyone and will pass speedily. Even thinking to bid with this
hand above is an overbid and an insult to partner.

After all, if partner is a passed hand and I am a passed hand and the
contest is matchpoints, I am assured of a fine score with 170 and I
leave 3H well alone.

nikos

[Chamaco]

nikos59, on Jul 11 2004, 08:26 PM, said:

To Chamaco:

You say that if pard holds

AJTx
KQxx
x
xxxx

over the reopening, he must bid 4H.

This (i.e. the "he must bid" part) is going too far, isn't it?

I do not think so:

The balancer is marked with clubs shortness and at least about 10 hcp (obviously none of which wasted in clubs unless it's an Ace) or 7 losers for his balancing.

xxxx in opps suit increases the value of our hand (expecting pard with shortness).
The 9+ card fit also increases the chances (added possibilities of throw ins and ruffs keeping trump control, less risk of bad trump split).

As I said, it is enough that balancer has 2 aces and something in spades to suggest even more than game.

A reasonable hand for balancing is:

♠Qxx
♥ATxxx
♦Axxx
♣x

or even a distributional hand short in hcp but with 7 losers:

♠xx
♥JTxxxx
♦Axxxx
♣

Or whatever you want: just combine at your leisure any 10-11 hcp count or a 7-loser hand, with 5+ hearts and shortness in clubs and you will see that some layouts will fail (e.g. when balancer has wasted values in diamonds) but most layouts will make game either as cross ruff or as dummy reversal.

This is a game where an expert wants to be despite shortage of hcp. Fit matters.

I think this is a clearcut 4H bid and I am sure that anyyone who is so aggressive to suggest a 3H balancing with the hand before, will bid 4H with this hand opposite a passed hand balancer.

[whereagles]

I don't think it's clear to jump to game on that 4414 hand. After all, you're opposite a passed pard who failed to open 2H and rates to have club shortness (thus making it likely he streched to bid 3H).

But ok, suppose pard bids 4 with

AT9x <--- swapped jack to 9
KQxx
x
xxxx

I go 1 down in 4H but they're cold for 11 tricks in clubs, so...

Also, with Qxx ATxxx Axxx x, pard could perhaps have doubled.