[1eyedjack]

EarlPurple, on Jul 11 2004, 05:41 AM, said:

I'm bidding 3♥ over 2NT because I have good support for partner, and even if partner is going to pass I think we'll score better in hearts.
It depends on how you play a direct raise to 2♥ with 1NT forcing. Do you play that you use this method for constructive raises and 2♥ direct for pre-emptive raises, or vice-versa, or do you always deny 3-card support when you bid 1NT?

I use direct raise as constructive, and 1NT may conceal a weak hand with 3 card support. Not sure of the relevance.

[Chamaco]

helene_t, on Jul 11 2004, 10:07 AM, said:

1♥-1NT
3NT-4♥

Since 2NT would be 18-19 bal, 3NT shows this hand

I like the use you suggest of 3NT but I do not like it in ths hand.

It should show a poor heart suit 8as it is, but the extra heart makes it a little better than expected; and it should also show (as a consequence) scattered valued in the short suits.

But the main point is that all short suit should be decently stopped.

Here clubs are totally unstopped: this is very very bad, if u bid 3NT pard will just pass., as he expect 5 hearts and all side suit stopped.

If one has no special gadgets here, and has to bid "naturally" it is better to consider AKQ of spades a 4 card rather than show aNT hand when instead your clubs are unstopped.

[Free]

1♥ - 1NT
2♠* - 2NT**
3♥*** - 4♥

* = 15+ reverse
** = moderator
*** = real reverse, GF, out of elimination must be 4-6 distribution

btw, I don't think 4♥ always makes, since RHO can get trump promotion with 10xx and only 3♣s, when they play 3 ♣'s from the start...

[Fluffy]

I can´t see any bid but:

1♥-1NT
2NT-3NT
pass

not the best contract?... mmm

with my partner the auction may differ:

1♥-1♠*
2NT**-3♣***
3♥-4♥

1♠*= like if said 1NT forcing.
2NT**=Game forcing, since 3x=5-5 after 1♠, adn we don´t open any kind of strong 2´s, 2NT is 18-19 balanced OR any 5-4 strong or any strong 1-suiter.
3♣***=what do you have?

Even now I think I would still bid 3NT and not 3♥ after the 3♣ relay.

[inquiry]

Let me recommend the correct auction ( hehehe)...

1♥ 2♥
4♥ Pass

What? 2♥ raise on a doubleton? Well, it is a very good doubleton.

What? 2♥ with well less than a constructive raise? Well, Misho and I use 1M=2♣ as drury after 3rd/4th seat opening, and as drury or balanced game try, or as true 2/1 after 1st or 2nd seat. This way, our 1M-2M is never constructive (start with 2♣.

This one would actually be fairly easy for us to bid. This auction also has the advanatage of getting your partner to lead a ♥ if you end up on defense.

Ok, I admit, I will be a lone voice on the direct 2♥ raise. Just thought I would share this the rest of you (and at least Ron has read this bidding theory).

Ben

[whereagles]

Not that lonely. I hadn't thought of 2H, but now that you mention it, I think it's a jolly good bid

[the hog]

"Ok, I admit, I will be a lone voice on the direct 2♥ raise. Just thought I would share this the rest of you (and at least Ron has read this bidding theory). "
I thought you would bid it this way - and I like the theory!

[Flame]

What is this thoery ? it looks really strange to me because i know many who will not raize to 2M even with 3card and 6-7 hcp, they will bid 1nt with it and later support like they had a doubeton, now u have not only a 6 hcp but also a doubelton and you support imidiatly. Its intresting and i would be happy to read more about it.

The other things about is to you Ron, when you dont show a 4 card major, its because you dont think this will show the hand, you have to have something that make you think that, for example that good 6 card diamond. Anyway when you dont show a 4 card just treat it as it was a 3 card and act acordingly wather it to support later or not.

[the hog]

I have already explained why I think this is incorrect. To date NOBODY has shown me how to get to a 4-4 S fit after responder has DENIED 4S with his 1N bid. Repeating what I have already stated - a D game, slam is a LONG way away, the most likely game contracts are 4M and 3N. By bidding 1NT you are eliminating 4M from the equation. If you don't mind burying your major suits fits, thats fine. I, for one, do mind.

Fwiw, the way I play, I can show a weak hand with 4S and 6+D even after a 2C rebid by opener with the auction 1H 1S 2C 3D.

[Flame]

Are you sure 4M on 4-4 fit is always better then 3nt ?
In general it is, but when you have a good 6 card diamond and a very bad 4 card major im not so sure anymore, we will play 3nt unless partner think we should play 4sp on 4-3.
btw im cheking my email every ten seconds

[the hog]

Are you sure 4M on 4-4 fit is always better then 3nt ?

Always? No. Mostly yes.
What game would you like to be in?
xxxx
AKxx
x
AKQJ

xxxx
x
AKxx
xxxx

Or -

Axxx
x
Qx
Axxxxx

xxxx
xx
AKJxxx
x

[Flame]

Its great to give examples, now lets change your examples just alittle bit
xxxx
AKxx
x
AKQJ

xxxx
Q
AKxx
xxxx

just added the Q of heart, could have added the Q of diamond just as well, now 3nt is much better then 4sp. actually even adding the J of diamond makes 3nt better imo.

Axxx
x
Qx
Axxxxx

xxxx
xx
AKJxxx
x

This hand got no heart stoper this mean my partner after checking for stopers will want to play spades on 4-3 fit, and what a great surprise he will have when i'll show my 4 card suit.

[the hog]

Axxx
Axxxxx
Qx
x

xxxx
xx
AKJxxx
x

This hand got no heart stoper this mean my partner after checking for stopers will want to play spades on 4-3 fit, and what a great surprise he will have when i'll show my 4 card suit.

You are living in a dream world - your auction will be 1H 1N 2H

(Corrected)

[Flame]

The_Hog, on Jul 13 2004, 07:23 PM, said:

Axxx
x
Qx
Axxxxx

xxxx
xx
AKJxxx
x

This hand got no heart stoper this mean my partner after checking for stopers will want to play spades on 4-3 fit, and what a great surprise he will have when i'll show my 4 card suit.

You are living in a dream world - your auction will be 1C 1N 2C 2D all pass!

In which dream world will i bid 1nt over 1c with this hand ?
anyway i ment the stoper argument in general, when we have no stoper then we are not going for 3nt anyway and will look for a 4-3 major fit.

[inquiry]

Flame, on Jul 13 2004, 06:51 PM, said:

What is this thoery ? it looks really strange to me because i know many who will not raize to 2M even with 3card and 6-7 hcp, they will bid 1nt with it and later support like they had a doubeton, now u have not only a 6 hcp but also a doubelton and you support imidiatly. Its intresting and i would be happy to read more about it.

Looks strange? welcome to my world... hehehe

To find out more about "reverse drury/2-1 GF/variable balanced no fit way I play 1M-2♣, see threads like...

First and 2nd hand drury Since I play "drury" (well modified so much, either drury or some other specific raise type, a direct raise can be weak (even weaker than 6-7 pts).

see also the thread
Unloading 1NT forcing for more discussion of the effect of chaging the 2♣ bid. It is more than just the direct raise that is altered.

It is easy, relatively fun, and follows along the use of 2♣ as artificial (most use it as game force relay), while keeping simple reverse drury like responses. If Drury after 1st seat openings was good enough for Barry Crane, a similar system (only slightly more complicated) is good enough for me... :-)

After you read it, if you have any question, I would be happy to discuss them with you.

ben

[EricK]

The_Hog, on Jul 13 2004, 10:55 PM, said:

I have already explained why I think this is incorrect. To date NOBODY has shown me how to get to a 4-4 S fit after responder has DENIED 4S with his 1N bid. Repeating what I have already stated - a D game, slam is a LONG way away, the most likely game contracts are 4M and 3N. By bidding 1NT you are eliminating 4M from the equation. If you don't mind burying your major suits fits, thats fine. I, for one, do mind.

Fwiw, the way I play, I can show a weak hand with 4S and 6+D even after a 2C rebid by opener with the auction 1H 1S 2C 3D.

The ability to show this hand obviously makes it safer to show the 4 cd major.

But if you don't have this ability, then you are weighing up the possibility of missing a Spade game on a 4-4 fit, with the possibility of reaching the wrong part score.

I know games are worth more than part scores, but if the chance of game is very low, it may not be right, on average, to look for that game at all (and quoting hands where it is right or wrong does not really help answer the question of what is right on average).

On a related note, aren't you one of those people who advocates bypassing a 4 card major as opener with a balanced hand on an auction like 1♣ 1♥ 1♠/1NT? If so, isn't that slightly inconsistent?

Eric

[Fluffy]

So you are guys discusing about if 4M can be ever worse than 3NT when comeone has an outside 6 card suit?

Where is the problem? you´ve got a 6 card suit, partner has singleton, you ca stablish it better on 4M.

You have a 4-6, partner has doubleton, you can maybe stablish it better ruffing third round.

Your 6 card suit has all top honniors and doesn´t need to be stablished?, oh well then you´ve got trumps to stop the remaining suits.

So the only question comes when you lose 4 tricks in the trtump suit? lol, even then the contract is playable, and you are able to avoid it with proper bidding.