[the hog]

What is the best auction to get to 4H?

AKQ
Qxxxxx
AK
xx

xxx
KJ
Qxxx
xxxx

[Rado]

Hi Ron,

Maybe a normal action will be:
1♥-1NT ( we play it semi forcing, denies fit for ♥)
2♠- 3♥
4♥
Regards
Rado

[Chamaco]

This hands suit well the "Gazzilli" convention, useful for thos reverse or "half reverse" which need to know more from resoponder rather than just jump rebid at 3 level (like here, terrible trumps to jump rebid).

1♥:1NT
2♣*:2♥**
4♥***

* = I have either a half reverse or better (15/16+) OR a natural 2 clubs rebid.
Pard please bid 2 diamonds if you have a constructive hand (7/8+ hcp), otherwise bid naturally to show weaker hand.

**= weak preference to hearts, guarantee 2 cards

*** = with 2+ card support by responder and such a strong hand, I want to gamble for game.
Pard has bid 1NT, and no matter whether 1NT is forcing or not, he is not broke. Game may not make but there are too many layouts where it will.

Gazzilli:
http://www.padovabri...ie/gazzilli.htm

[whereagles]

I like Rado's auction. The 3H bid shows good evaluation by responder. If he had, say,

xxx
Kx
QJxx
xxxx

then the support isn't as good and probably is better to bid it like

1H 1NT
2S 2NT (or whatever you use to show a weaker hand)
3H pass

[PriorKnowledge]

What about the obvious bidding:
1H 1N
3H 4H
The 4H raise is iffy. Responder will have to recognize the value of the H-KJ

[Chamaco]

PriorKnowledge, on Jul 9 2004, 12:52 PM, said:

What about the obvious bidding:
1H 1N
3H 4H
The 4H raise is iffy. Responder will have to recognize the value of the H-KJ

Yuk!
Jump rebid 3H with such a lousy suit is awful.

A system that forces you to jump rebid 3H with such a suit just to show a reverse is terrible. I much prefer to jump bid it with 14 hcp and solid trumps rather than 16/17 with an empty 6 bagger.

[PriorKnowledge]

Chamaco, on Jul 9 2004, 09:02 AM, said:

Yuk!
Jump rebid 3H with such a lousy suit is awful.

That is where I differ from most. 18hcp + weak 6h = 3H rebid. You want responder to increase the value of heart honors.

I don't see how rebidding in a 3-card suit is better to honestly showing a 6-card suit?

To me, this the KISS rebid.

[Chamaco]

PriorKnowledge, on Jul 9 2004, 01:15 PM, said:

Chamaco, on Jul 9 2004, 09:02 AM, said:

Yuk!
Jump rebid 3H with such a lousy suit is awful.

That is where I differ from most. 18hcp + weak 6h = 3H rebid. You want responder to increase the value of heart honors.

I don't see how rebidding in a 3-card suit is better to honestly showing a 6-card suit?

To me, this the KISS rebid.

The Gazzilli convention that I suggested is not 3 card rebid, but a relay to get info from pard's hand.
It solves many of opener's rebid so that 3-level jumps are "pure".

"KISS" rebids like this will lead to many poor contracts, and missing many laydown slams (1NT responder vs strong opener) when you cannot rely on the quality of the trump suit.

3 level jumps should be well defined in terms of honors concentration, not only hcp, because they take away so much space.

However, I guess it's a matter of taste to choose one's system.

[Trpltrbl]

I bid it same way as Rado.
My ♥ suit is just not good enough for 3♥ rebid, so I am making up a bid.

Mike

[Trpltrbl]

Chamaco, on Jul 9 2004, 03:13 AM, said:

This hands suit well the "Gazzilli" convention, useful for thos reverse or "half reverse" which need to know more from resoponder rather than just jump rebid at 3 level (like here, terrible trumps to jump rebid).

1♥:1NT
2♣*:2♥**
4♥***

* = I have either a half reverse or better (15/16+) OR a natural 2 clubs rebid.
Pard please bid 2 diamonds if you have a constructive hand (7/8+ hcp), otherwise bid naturally to show weaker hand.

**= weak preference to hearts, guarantee 2 cards

*** = with 2+ card support by responder and such a strong hand, I want to gamble for game.
Pard has bid 1NT, and no matter whether 1NT is forcing or not, he is not broke. Game may not make but there are too many layouts where it will.

Gazzilli:
http://www.padovabri...ie/gazzilli.htm

Great, looks like something I might like, will try it out for a while.
That's 2 days in a row I found a new gadget.

Mike

[the hog]

I like Rado's auction, and in fact pd duplicated that when I gave him the hand. 3H on that weak suit is awful, and I really like the Gazzilli concept and will need to look into this.

I posted this hand because I wanted to see how many players would bid 2S. The problem is - what if responder had
xxxx
KJ
Qxxx
xxx
and followed Luis and Flame and bid 1NT on this hand, by passing the weak 4 card major. Well, can opener bid 2S if this might be the case?

Responder has to raise to 3S, because opener MAY be 4522; (what about a raise to 4S?) Could opener even be 5611? How do you get to 4H now with the hand I posted, and don't tell me opener can rebid 3NT and then resp will bid 4H. SURE! This auction is especially likely for beginners/intermediates, where the comment was first made, isnt it?

I note with great interest that those who pushed that "by pass the bad 4 card major" line did not attempt to post a logical auction here - probably because they could see what was coming.

[EricK]

The_Hog, on Jul 10 2004, 12:27 AM, said:

I like Rado's auction, and in fact pd duplicated that when I gave him the hand. 3H on that weak suit is awful, and I really like the Gazzilli concept and will need to look into this.

I posted this hand because I wanted to see how many players would bid 2S. The problem is - what if responder had
xxxx
KJ
Qxxx
xxx
and followed Luis and Flame and bid 1NT on this hand, by passing the weak 4 card major. Well, can opener bid 2S if this might be the case?

Responder has to raise to 3S, because opener MAY be 4522; (what about a raise to 4S?) Could opener even be 5611? How do you get to 4H now with the hand I posted, and don't tell me opener can rebid 3NT and then resp will bid 4H. SURE! This auction is especially likely for beginners/intermediates, where the comment was first made, isnt it?

I note with great interest that those who pushed that "by pass the bad 4 card major" line did not attempt to post a logical auction here - probably because they could see what was coming.

I would bid

1♥ 1NT
2NT 3♥
4♥

I prefer not to bid 3 card suits early in the auction if I can possibly help it.

But, I am not sure your comment about bypassing weak 4 card majors is quite right. I don't think people advocate bypassing weak 4 cd majors on every hand, but only on hands where there is a likely better spot (usually those with a long minor suit)

With the balanced hand given here, I think most people would bid 1♠. But the hand from the other thread had an excellent ♦ suit. If you don't play methods which will allow you to play in 2 or 3♦ after a start like 1♥ 1♠ 2♣, then responder has to weigh up the pros of bidding 1♠ (easily get to good game if partner has a fit) with the cons (miss best part score because can't show ♦, maybe miss low HCP 3NT game because partner can't find out about ♦ fit).

The weaker the hand overall, the more likely the cons are going to outweigh the pros.

Eric

[1eyedjack]

I play a sort of Kaplin Inversion cum Gazzili where opener gives a 2-step re-transfer back to his 6 card suit to give responder an opportunity to put the brakes on:

1H 1S(1)
2C(2) 2H(3)
2N(4) 4H(5)

(1) Forcing NT style bid
(2) 6+ Hearts, forcing but not showing any extras
(3) Shut up p (2D would show extras over which 2H would be weak opener)
(4) No, I won't shut up. Don't much like 2N, but I have shown my 6 card H suit, I am balanced, in context I hate my Hearts.
(5) Well, in that case, I am huge in context of my 2H bid.

It still takes some imagination for responder to bid 4H, and I am not convinced it is the right bid. Easy to see with all the hands. I think perhaps he should just bid 3H and opener, with a 4 loser hand and only looking for a modicum of H support, may then drive to game.

[Chamaco]

1eyedjack, on Jul 10 2004, 09:24 AM, said:

It still takes some imagination for responder to bid 4H, and I am not convinced it is the right bid.  Easy to see with all the hands.

Don't think so.
Have 2 losers in clubs and 2.5 in hearts, bidding game loses only when pard has wasted values in diamonds.
Even if he contributes as little as Ax/Kx in hearts, and nothing else useful, 4H will have some play.

Sometimes I may hit pard with a really bad hand, but I prefer to go down in this game rather than proceed scientifically, stop in 3 H because pard has a really bad hand, and find out I was making anyways 4H with overtricks.

It's not double dummy evaluation, but the acknowledgement that a game should be bid below 50% chance.
Put constantly your opponents under pressure, bid tight games, and they'll do mistakes- REAGARDLESS OF THEIR SKILL LEVEL. If you go down once or twice, it just happens.

[Cave_Draco]

The_Hog, on Jul 10 2004, 12:27 AM, said:

I posted this hand because I wanted to see how many players would bid 2S. The problem is - what if responder had
xxxx
KJ
Qxxx
xxx
and followed Luis and Flame and bid 1NT on this hand, by passing the weak 4 card major. Well, can opener bid 2S if this might be the case?

Responder has to raise to 3S, because opener MAY be 4522...

If responder knows that opener "knows" that responder will bypass a weak 4-card ♠ suit (alertable?) - opener should still bid 2♠.
Then responder, with ♥ support, has to find a bid other than 3♠! 3♣/♦ is forcing... 3♥-4♥?

[EarlPurple]

EricK, on Jul 10 2004, 03:18 PM, said:

I posted this hand because I wanted to see how many players would bid 2S. The problem is - what if responder had
xxxx
KJ
Qxxx
xxx
and followed Luis and Flame and bid 1NT on this hand, by passing the weak 4 card major. Well, can opener bid 2S if this might be the case?

Would anyone by-pass 1S on this hand?

It was a totally different hand where we suggested passing by the spade suit: holding:

♠xxxx
♥x
♦AKJxxx
♣xx

you have a plan to show a weak hand with diamonds, so your first step is to bid 1NT. The theory here is that if partner has a very strong hand with 4 spades he can reverse anyway and you won't lose the suit.

With the hand above I agree with EricK's auction.

[1eyedjack]

EarlPurple, on Jul 10 2004, 06:40 PM, said:

With the hand above I agree with EricK's auction.

I think it is something of a view to pull 2N to 3H on what is most probably a 7 card fit with no ruffing values. Can be correct (as here, if 2N is correct) but something of a lottery.

[helene_t]

1♥-1NT
3NT-4♥

Since 2NT would be 18-19 bal, 3NT shows this hand

[1eyedjack]

helene_t, on Jul 11 2004, 05:07 AM, said:

1♥-1NT
3NT-4♥

Since 2NT would be 18-19 bal, 3NT shows this hand

Excellent use of an otherwise redundant 3N rebid. It does rather commit you to game, however. Perhaps you are worth a GF opposite any response. Certainly makes life easier.

[EarlPurple]

I'm bidding 3♥ over 2NT because I have good support for partner, and even if partner is going to pass I think we'll score better in hearts.
It depends on how you play a direct raise to 2♥ with 1NT forcing. Do you play that you use this method for constructive raises and 2♥ direct for pre-emptive raises, or vice-versa, or do you always deny 3-card support when you bid 1NT?