[Ant590]

This hand may look familiar to those that have used the bidding-quest service:

AKT75 KQT92 - A63

opponents silent
1♠ - 2♠*
?

2♠ was a constructive raise.

In your system you have the ability to
(1) Make a short suit game try, and then proceed with a cuebid to show a mild slam try (with the diamond shortage)
(2) Make a long suit game try, and then proceed with a cuebid to show a mild slam try (with a second side-suit)
(3) Bid 4♠

Which do you choose and why?

[kenrexford]

Definitely will seek slam. The question is what Responder will do after each, and how I go about making these different game tries.

I mean, suppose 2NT shows one of these, as a relay to 3♣ or something. if SSGT is done that way, then I will end up presumably bidding 3♦ as the SSGT after 3♣. But, can partner do anything interesting other than 3♣? What options will he have after 3♦?

If 2NT starts the LSGT, then some similar questions arise, but 2NT-P-3♣-P-3♥ is more preemptive, ever-so-slightly.

If 3♦ immediately is a SSGT or 3H as LSGT, similar issues -- what happens next?

For that matter, what is meant by a jump? If, for example, 4♦ also is available as a splinter, how is this different from showing the shortness and then making a slam try? If 4♥ shows hearts (not splinters here), how is this different from showing hearts and then doing something interesting?

These types of "which way to go" questions depend on partnership agreements after a start type is selected and the inferences from not taking an alternative start type that might also apply somewhat.

[helene_t]

If we have to lose a trump trick we will need a useful honour in both hearts and clubs for slam to be good, unless partner has a singleton clubs.

If not, help in either of the two suits will do it, unless partner's help is ♣Q and they lead a club and ♣K is on my right.

So I think a short-suit trial is slightly more helpful.

[Ant590]

For some more clarity --- I'm not claiming these agreements are good, but they are the ones we have!

The short suit gametry would be 3♣, showing diamond shortage
- then 3♦ accepts the game try with little/no wastage in diamond, asking partner if he has slam interest
- 3♥ is a cuebid, accepting the game try with extra values and some diamond wastage
- 3♠ is the only non-GF bid
- 4m are like 3♥

The long suit game try is 2NT, asking partner to bid the cheapest suit where a game try would be accepted. After 3m, 3H is a game try in hearts: partner is expected to give a cuebid along the way if accepting.

A jump to the 4-level is an advanced-cuebid (at least that what I think it's called), so generally balanced with first/second round control in the suit bid.

[pooltuna]

Ant590, on Jan 1 2010, 12:05 PM, said:

This hand may look familiar to those that have used the bidding-quest service:

AKT75 KQT92 - A63

opponents silent
1♠ - 2♠*
?

2♠ was a constructive raise.

In your system you have the ability to
(1) Make a short suit game try, and then proceed with a cuebid to show a mild slam try (with the diamond shortage)
(2) Make a long suit game try, and then proceed with a cuebid to show a mild slam try (with a second side-suit)
(3) Bid 4♠

Which do you choose and why?

4♠ minimal information to the opps

[jdonn]

If I can't bid an asking 2NT then I bid 3♣, this is where I want help for slam. Of course giving up on slam is not bridge.

[helene_t]

Ant590, on Jan 1 2010, 07:00 PM, said:

A jump to the 4-level is an advanced-cuebid (at least that what I think it's called), so generally balanced with first/second round control in the suit bid.

No, an advanced cuebid is a bid that is ostensibly a game try but changes its meaning to a cuebid once the player who made the bid makes a slam try. For example:
1♠-2♠
3♣*-3♠
4♦

3♣ was ostensibly some kind of game try but the 4♦ cuebid reveals that 3♣ was meant as a cuebid.

[aguahombre]

the above methods, of course, all work. So will a 3H bid with solid agreements, if you don't have the artificial conventions or don't use short-suit tries.

For us, 3H is at least a game try, and by inference would show a lot of hearts as a trick source in an unbalanced hand, because all bids below it were bypassed. If responder had both a spade honor and the heart ace, she could then try a serious 3NT, slowing down the auction for slam/grand slam exploration. With a lesser hand than this, opener could just bid 4S. With this one, he could bid 4C.

1S 2S
3H 3NT* serious if opener has a biggie --accepting game, of course.
4C 4H cues
etc.

[fred]

To do anything other than bidding 3H (or whatever is equivalent in your methods) is terrible in my view.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Fluffy]

I think slam will be good as long as partner has 8 HCP or so outside diamonds, 4♦ can get this message across.

3♥ won't let partner ever know the difference bewteen ♣K and ♦K I think.

I would also like to hide my long suit for lead reasons. Specially if this is match points and we might end in 4♠ still.

Short suit game try can be even better. Specially if you did so with 2NT and not 3♣.

If I can bid my shortness twice to get the message across. (or even jump to 4♦ after 2NT-3♣!)

[aguahombre]

Fluffy, on Jan 1 2010, 12:25 PM, said:

3♥ won't let partner ever know the difference bewteen ♣K and ♦K I think.

True, it won't. but showing the K of diamonds and not the king of clubs if the auction developes would be an old fashioned way of surmounting that problem.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I wold go with the short suit game try, the alternative being 4D,
which should be a splinter.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Jlall]

The reason I'd bid 3H is a simple one...we may belong in hearts

[ggwhiz]

I like 3c as the game try. If accepted, a diamond bid to follow will reveal the heart ace in pards hand (or not) and it might blow off a club opening lead.

If pard has 4 trumps, I'm betting on pitching a potential club loser on hearts.

If pard has 3 spades and 4 hearts, we may indeed belong in hearts but a 3 heart OR 4 club acceptance of the game try with serious intent solves all at once and I'll risk that route rather than guess about her minor suit holdings after 3 hearts - pass - 4 spades which might be short hearts instead of the Ace.

[gnasher]

There are two hand-types where slam is good:
- A maximum with no diamond wastage.
- Four-card heart support and two useful cards, where we can play in hearts and throw dummy's clubs on spades.

Showing hearts will work well if partner has four of them, but if he doesn't we'll be much better placed if we show our shortage. After showing hearts, we won't be able to distinguish between, for example, QJx Axx xxx QJxx and QJx Axx QJxx xxx.

If I were a little stronger, I'd show the shortage, because a medium hand with diamond wastage is probably more likely than a hand with four hearts. On the actual hand, however, the hand with no diamond wastage needs to be a maximum, whereas for the heart hand Qxx Axxx xxx xxx will be enough. So, I'd show the hearts.

[jdonn]

I want to change my vote to hearts, I feel goofy actually. We could just too easily belong in hearts, even though I think bidding clubs helps his evaluation more than bidding hearts which is why I originally chose it. We could even have a 5-5 heart fit easily, which could be a grand opposite something like Qxx Axxxx xxx xx.

[kenrexford]

I think I want to make a long-suit game/slam try by bidding 2NT. But, I'm scared to death with what the heck happens after this strange Responder rebid structure.

[Ant590]

Ok, thanks for the many replies.

It seems the consensus show hearts. Sadly our terrible system kicks in again:

1♠ - 2♠*
2NT** - 3NT
* constructive
** long suit GT somewhere

3NT shows:
Accepts any long-suit game try
Denies a second suit, defined to be Hxxx or better.

Followups to this are cuebids - presumably people are bidding 4♣, keycard, 5♣ is exclusion.

[gnasher]

jdonn, on Jan 2 2010, 12:28 AM, said:

I want to change my vote to hearts

I changed my vote too. When I first saw the problem I thought it was right to show diamond shortage.

[ggwhiz]

Although I agree with gnasher in principle, we need partner to cooperate if slam is going to be bid. Qxx Axxx xxx xxx only gets to game. If pard raises to 4h with this, now what. Are you moving? Could they not have something like Qxx Jxxx KQxx Jx?

Qxxx Ax xxxxx Kx and many others have at least a shot after a 3c try if pard is up to a 3h bid, Or a 4c bid with Qxx, Jx, xxxx, KQTx

If pard can cooperate towards slam, the 3c try lets him do it in clubs or (maybe later) hearts too. I don't think we can (should) get there on our own steam without eliciting pards assistance.