[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

W N E S
P 1♥ P 1♠
P 3♣ P ?

---

Hi,
Playing this with pick up partner, ended up in wrong contract.
My second bid was 4♣
What should I have bid? (learning sayc)

tyia
jillybean

[luis]

What system were you playing?

I think the 1♠ bid is a criminal offense in any system.
and sorry but 4♣ is probably even worst.

Playing 2/1 bid 1N and if pd rebids 2♣ bid 2♦. (Over 3♣ 3♦ or 3N depending on your agreements about 3♦ after 1M-1N;3c)
Playing Sayc if 1h-3♦ is weakish or invitational and not artificial then bid 3♦. If not I think a 1N bid is best, typical SAYC nebulous 1N bid but at least the HCPs are right this time.

Luis

[badderzboy]

Playing SAYC,

I would have bid 1♠ first for two reasons it stops a spade lead and by bidding 1NT you have denied 4 spades! and you are not strong enough to bid 2♦.


After the strong reverse promising 5♥ & 4♣ I would bid 3NT showing the misfit and diamond stop and expecting the diamond lead into your nice AKJxxx...

A fellow beginner / intermediate so I'm likely to be incorrect!

Steve

[Flame]

The syac "book" bid is 1sp, so you shouldnt feel bad for making it.
You can do what luis suggested, skip this major suit because it will show the hand better.

[Rado]

Hi all, friends

To Jilly:
after 1♥ -1♠-3♣ bid 3NT, the hands seems to be misfit 2-suiters, but after jump by the opener you have enough values for 3NT ( and hope 1♠ bid to stop Opponents leading the suit:-))))))))))))))

To Luis:
In my view when non FG responder is better to show 4 cards Major than to hide
"missing to bid 1♠ is criminal offence......"

In general:
using fairly natural methods there are many situations with 4 cards Major+6 cards minor and less than FG values where every bid seems wrong. Unfortunatelly most of the bridge teaching books present only hands convenient for their methods and miss the problem ones.

My practical advise is to show your Major and accept the bad part scores when partner is weak, but not to miss your games in Major or NT when partner has better hand.
On the contrary - let's add an Ace to the example hand:
♠ 10xxx
♥x
♦AKJxxx
♣Ax
now start with 2/1 and show ♠ later if needed

Best Regards
Rado

[luis]

badderzboy, on Jul 5 2004, 02:35 PM, said:

Playing SAYC,

I would have bid 1♠ first for two reasons it stops a spade lead and by bidding 1NT you have denied 4 spades! and you are not strong enough to bid 2♦.


After the strong reverse promising 5♥ & 4♣ I would bid 3NT showing the misfit and diamond stop and expecting the diamond lead into your nice AKJxxx...

A fellow beginner / intermediate so I'm likely to be incorrect!

Steve

The problem is when pd has something like 1-5-3-4 or 0-5-3-5, you can be missing a diamond slam since you never bid your 6 card suit.
Bidding 1s with xxxx and then 3N never showing AKJxxx of diamonds can never be the right approach no matter where they told you such a thing.

You are wrong about 1s being the "Sayc bid" the SAYC bid is 1N yes, deniying the horrible xxxx of spades -good thing- over almost any rebid by pd you can bid 3♦ showing a hand without 3h, without 4♠ and with a diamond suit 6-10 HCP, which is xactly what you have.

"No rule or book can prevent you from doing what is correct" (Luis)

[Trpltrbl]

It depends if you play 4th Forcing.
When you think ahead in auction, you can see problem arise when you bid 1♠ and yr pd bids 2♣. In the case I play 4suit Forcing I would have bid 1 NT.
If I don't I bid 1♠ and after pd's 2♣, I bid 2♦.
There really isn't a perfect bid, that just happens sometimes.
What Luis said could work sometimes, but you are telling pd's 2 lies now, you denied 4♠ and promised at least 2♥.

Mike

[luis]

Rado, on Jul 5 2004, 02:46 PM, said:

Hi all, friends

To Jilly:
after 1♥ -1♠-3♣ bid 3NT, the hands seems to be misfit 2-suiters, but after jump by the opener you have enough values for 3NT ( and hope 1♠ bid to stop Opponents leading the suit:-))))))))))))))

To Luis:
In my view when non FG responder is better to show 4 cards Major than to hide
"missing to bid 1♠ is criminal offence......"

In general:
using fairly natural methods there are many situations with 4 cards Major+6 cards minor and less than FG values where every bid seems wrong. Unfortunatelly most of the bridge teaching books present only hands convenient for their methods and miss the problem ones.

My practical advise is to show your Major and accept the bad part scores when partner is weak, but not to miss your games in Major or NT when partner has better hand.
On the contrary - let's add an Ace to the example hand:
♠ 10xxx
♥x
♦AKJxxx
♣Ax
now start with 2/1 and show ♠ later if needed

Best Regards
Rado

Multi-reply:

Rado:

My friend, I disagree 100% with you :-), how can you be happy with your 3N bid, it's a complete gamble into the darkness. You can have QJxxx, xx, AQx,xxx and make exactly the same two bids. I wonder how happy you feel when QJxxx-xx,AQx,xxx bids the same as xxxx,x,AKJxxx,xx. What is your pd supossed to do use the magic 8 ball to determine the contract?
I'm not saying that hiding spades is a clever move that you must always do what I say is that hiding AKJxxx of diamonds is terrible and if you do bid 1s to show your 4 horrible spades you are hiding AKJxxx of diamonds.


Trpltrbl:
1) I'm very happy of deniying 4 spades with xxxx
2) Since when a 1NT response to 1♥ shows 2 cards in hearts???

[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

W N E S
P 1♥ p 1♠
p 3♣ p 4♣
p 4nt p 5♦ (rkc0314)
p 6♥

---

Thanks everyone,
Here's the full hand and bidding (as bad as it is!)
4♣ was one of my "panic bids" I don't know what to, NT looks terrible, 3♦ is too high, can't pass...

[Rado]

Hola Luis:-))))))

I've never mentioned I was happy.

My post was a product of "bitter" real life experience

Regards
Rado

[mr1303]

4NT with not 1 but 2 voids?!?

No wonder you ended up in a stupid contract.

[Flame]

mr1303, on Jul 5 2004, 11:05 AM, said:

4NT with not 1 but 2 voids?!?

No wonder you ended up in a stupid contract.

Its not that stupid, cue bidding 4h or even 4s could be misinterete by partner to be natural (especially with non 100% solid partnerships) 4nt has the adv of asking about the Q of club, i guess if get an answer of 2 aces and the Q of trump you will bid 7, and maybe even with 1 ace and the Q of club, for a 50% grand slam in the worst case.

[luis]

I think the correct SAYC bidding is:

2c - 2d
2h - 3d
4c - 4d
5c - pass

Or if you don't open freakish two suiters 2c

1h - 1n
4c - 4d
5c - pass

[jillybean]

Thanks all…Luis,
Please tell me more about freakish two suiters, is 2♣ is used to show 2 suiter or 22+
ty
jillybean2

[luis]

jillybean2, on Jul 5 2004, 07:30 PM, said:

Thanks all…Luis,
Please tell me more about freakish two suiters, is 2♣ is used to show 2 suiter or 22+
ty
jillybean2

2♣ is usually used to show any 22+ hand or any distributional hand with 3 or less losers. Others refer to 2♣ as any game-forcing hand.
I usually describe 2♣ as "I really don't want to be passed out at 1x" :-)

Some players don't like to open two suiters with 2♣ argueing that the hand is very difficult to describe because you have to show your suits starting at a higher level, it can also be added that if the two suiter doesn't have a lot of power in HCP there's very little risk of being passed out in 1x.

The hand you post is too freaky to make an educated guess about what is best, some days it will work opening 1♥ some days it will be better to open 2♣, who knows?

Luis

[Trpltrbl]

Quote

Trpltrbl:
1) I'm very happy of deniying 4 spades with xxxx
2) Since when a 1NT response to 1♥ shows 2 cards in hearts???

1 ) that's an option
2 ) In SAYC, it almost always does.

Mike

[Flame]

Trpltrbl, on Jul 5 2004, 03:06 PM, said:

Quote

Trpltrbl:
1) I'm very happy of deniying 4 spades with xxxx
2) Since when a 1NT response to 1♥ shows 2 cards in hearts???

1 ) that's an option
2 ) In SAYC, it almost always does.

Mike

Why ? what is the sayc bid for 6-9 hcp with 0-3 spades and 0-1 hearts ?
example
AQx
----
xxxxxx
xxxx

[the hog]

1S is automatic on this hand. To Over 3C I follow up with 3NT.

[Flame]

The_Hog, on Jul 5 2004, 06:42 PM, said:

1S is automatic on this hand. To Over 3C I follow up with 3NT.

Im not sure what the term automatic (which luis uses alot) mean exactly, but when a player like luis say he would bid 1nt rather then 1sp, it mean the is atleast a resonable alternative.

I think ill try Luis's approach of not showing a weak 4 card major sometimes, and see how it will result, it feels right to me.

[the hog]

To bid 1NT on this hand is to hide the 2 crucial features of responder's hand - the possession of 4S and the good D suit. To bid 1S on this hand is to at least show one of those features.

What is poor opener to do over a 1NT bid holding AKQx AKJxx xx Qx
bid 2S? Yeah sure! Absolute codswallop, as in most partnerships you are showing 6H and 5S! 3NT is the bid virtually all will choose. Now you have lost your 4-4 S fit. Wonderful bidding! Please continue this particularly if you are playing against me.

"You can do what luis suggested, skip this major suit because it will show the hand better." To this I just say "nonsense".
Luis said, "if you do bid 1s to show your 4 horrible spades you are hiding AKJxxx of diamonds". So I suppose that now means bidding 1NT shows AKJxxx in diamonds - rofl!

You will not lose the D suit if you bid this way either, as after 1H 1S 1N 2C 2D any competent partner will take into account the possibility that Ds may be longer.

Finally Kathryn, you will find that most good players do not like to open big 2 suiters with a 2C opening unless they are so strong that a passout is likely. This is clearly NOT the case with this hand. I am constantly amused that those who concot the wonderful auctions after a 2C opening never seem to get any intereference in the auction. You are FAR better placed if you open 1H.

I think the auction should have continued
1H 1S
3C 3N
4C 4H

To give false preference to 4H on a singleton may look weird. but opener should be aware that this looks totally like a misfit. She has bid really strongly and resp has shown no fit at all. A prudent pass is well in order. Try 5C and probably all pass and thats ok as well.