[EarlPurple]

Firstly your first round bid: I think I was taught to respond 1♠ with hands like that but it's clearly wrong as you are stuck for a rebid after partner's likely 2♣ or 3♣ bid. I prefer 1NT and follow up with a diamond bid but maybe pass if partner bids 2♥. Obviously if partner reverses into 2♠ I will probably jump to 4♠. True there might be a slam if partner has all the right cards (AKQx Axxxx Qxx x) but he rarely does.

With partner having bid 3♣ now, 3♦ would be 4th suit forcing, and not showing your suit. You may bid it anyway simply because you have nowhere to go.

Partner's 4NT is the worst bid - it is totally irrelevant to him how many aces you hold.

Good hand for asking bids.

[the hog]

Why should opener reverse in S to show 4 when you have denied a 4 card holding there, Earl?

Any decent bidder will use this bid to show either concentrated values, not a 4 card suit, or some, (me included), play that the reverse now shows a 15-16 1534 or 1543 hand seeing as responder has categorically denied a 4 card holding in the S suit. Or ahem, in a pick up partnership surely the reverse would show a 6-5, again because responder has DENIED a 4 card S suit. "Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive"! I repeat - you have lost your 4-4 S fit, if there was one - forever.

Just one simple little hand to illustrate the futility of this:

---

1H 1N and Nth has no reason to move. You are -1 in 1NT and I am +170 in 2S. Good bridge, eh?

To bid 1NT is just poor bridge - end of story!.

[inquiry]

Hi Kathryn,

The "automatic" response with this hand is 1♠. Don't fell bad for making it. Here are some thoughts you might think before making an "automatic" response.

What other options are there? Here, playing SAYC there are two other obvious options. 1NT and 2♦ (all the above are giving you 2/1 response to 1♥). Before you make a bid, consider your most likely continuation. If you bid 1♠, can you rebid ♦ in a non-forcing context? For instance, would... 1H-1S-2C-2D be fourth suit forcing the way you play? Would 1H-1S-1NT-2D be new minor forcing.

If you can't bid 1♠ and then bid a non-forcing 2♦, maybe you should consider an alterative to 1♠. Playing SAYC you can bid 2♦ then rebid 3♦. (IF you bid 2♦ and your partner rebids 2♥, you can not rebid 2♠ as that is a reverse and shows a great hand). You can also consider a direct 3♦ bid over 1♥ if and only if, you play this to show weak hand and long ♦.

Finally, you can bid 1NT and hope to land in a playable spot. On this hand, I would choose 1NT, not so much because of my yucky spades, but because of my doubleton ♣. I think partner most likely rebids will be Pass, 2♥, and 2♣. I have easy rebids over all these... well, pass I get to play, 2♥ by partner, he gets to play, and if he bids 2♣ I will bid 2♦, now not forcing.

But rather you bid 1NT or 1♠ your partner's jump to 3♣ is a problem. I would NOT raise to 4♣. First, partner may have only 3 or 4♣'s and was just establishing a force. If I had bid 1NT, I would bid 3♦ over the jump, stering towards 3NT. If I had bid 1♠, I am not going to rebid 3♦, I will instead take a false preference back to 3♥, and drag my feet the rest of the way.

Ben

[luis]

The_Hog, on Jul 6 2004, 01:22 AM, said:

Why should opener reverse in S to show 4 when you have denied a 4 card holding there, Earl?

Any decent bidder will use this bid to show either concentrated values, not a 4 card suit, or some, (me included), play that the reverse now shows a 15-16 1534 or 1543 hand seeing as responder has categorically denied a 4 card holding in the S suit. Or ahem, in a pick up partnership surely the reverse would show a 6-5, again because responder has DENIED a 4 card S suit. "Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive"! I repeat - you have lost your 4-4 S fit, if there was one - forever.

Just one simple little hand to illustrate the futility of this:

---

1H 1N and Nth has no reason to move. You are -1 in 1NT and I am +170 in 2S. Good bridge, eh?

To bid 1NT is just poor bridge - end of story!.

Ron,
You can construct 1 or 2 hands where not bidding 1♠ makes us miss a 4♠ game, but you can also construct a zillion hands where not showing the diamond suit makes you lose a cold 6♦ or 7♦ or play a silly 3NT contract where you win 5♦ or 6♦.

I don't think 1♠ is automatic at all, I would never bid 1♠ holding AKJxxx of diamonds but I understand that some good players would.
Not only the 1♠ bids hides the diamond suit forever but it also will make pd evaluate his hand wrongly most of the time. How do you think pd will evaluate a singleton in spades once you show a spade suit? I personally think that this can only lead to some guess by opener the only single case where the 1♠ bids is where opener does have 4 spades, opener can't reverse and yet you can make a spade game.

There're auctions where in order to reach a good diamond slam you may even need to use the spade suit as an anti-splinter bid if pd shows he is short in spades, making him know that you have no wasted values there and no other honors to cuebid in the side suits.

[Trpltrbl]

Flame, on Jul 5 2004, 04:02 PM, said:

Trpltrbl, on Jul 5 2004, 03:06 PM, said:

Quote

Trpltrbl:
1) I'm very happy of deniying 4 spades with xxxx
2) Since when a 1NT response to 1♥ shows 2 cards in hearts???

1 ) that's an option
2 ) In SAYC, it almost always does.

Mike

Why ? what is the sayc bid for 6-9 hcp with 0-3 spades and 0-1 hearts ?
example
AQx
----
xxxxxx
xxxx

Flame,
1♠, clearcut, 100% everytime.
But I don't play SAYC, for many reason.
As I have stated before many of times, bridge is a game of constantly adjusting, and making the smallest lie.
Sometimes you are just stuck for a bid that's perfect.
If you don't have the feel, well....... I think I already suggested bingo earlier

Mike

[Flame]

Trpltrbl, on Jul 6 2004, 01:43 PM, said:

1♠, clearcut, 100% everytime.
But I don't play SAYC, for many reason.
As I have stated before many of times, bridge is a game of constantly adjusting, and making the smallest lie.
Sometimes you are just stuck for a bid that's perfect.
If you don't have the feel, well....... I think I already suggested bingo earlier

Mike

I dont understand how can you say that.
If a student of mine asks me about this and, i will prbebly tell him to bid 1sp, this is importent to understand the basics of bridge, that majors come first, that 1nt denay 4 card major, this as i mentioned before is the book bid, but this doesnt have to be the best bid, and when atleast one expert is telling you he would bid 1nt instead , you can throw to the garbage words like clearcut and automatic(unless i dont understand this word and it means something like the book bid).
Your saying clearcut here just make me think you are close minded, not ready to learn, overconfident, arrogant maybe. sorry if i offend you here but thats how i see it.

[the hog]

Flame,
What both Mike and I are saying is:The most common games are 3N and 4M, therefore a bidding system should be designed to reach those contracts easily as possible. Bidding 1NT on this hand cuts out the possibility of reaching a S fit. No one has yet mentioned a plausible way of finding a S contract, after responder has DENIED 4S with his bid.
You will note that even Luis in his reply to me changed his tune from "A crime against Bridge" to accepting that some players would bid 1S.

To say 1S is automatic is not close minded. Tell me a REALISTIC way to get to S after a NT bid and I will listen to you. NO ONE has yet.

[luke warm]

playing sayc, what's wrong with a 2♦ bid after 1♥? you have 26 zar points *grin*... even if you didn't, the hand (in my mind) qualifies for a 2/1 in sayc... the problem comes about when opener rebids 2♥, which he probably will (i don't see him reversing here, since you supposedly denied spades the first time - although with strength he might anyway)... now do you bid 2♠ or do you pass? seems to me you have to pass

the truth is, i'd bid 1♠ over 1♥... i don't think it's automatic, and some excellent players have said they'd bid 1nt... on the other hand some pretty dern good players bid 1♠... discouraging, ain't it?

[Flame]

The_Hog, on Jul 6 2004, 06:55 PM, said:

You will note that even Luis in his reply to me changed his tune from "A crime against Bridge" to accepting that some players would bid 1S.

Exactly my point, he first said its a crime but when a good player like you said he would bid 1sp then he reconsider and said its not a crime anymore, this is exctly what i ment, i would have no problem if you said its a clearcut before luis said he would bid differently but after he did, its just cant be a clearcut. it can be right but its not a clearcut.

[the hog]

I repeat my question, "How do you get to a S contract?"

[Trpltrbl]

Quote

playing sayc, what's wrong with a 2♦ bid after 1♥? you have 26 zar points *grin*...

I was going to mention something about that, but this is beginner/intermediate area.
And Actually you only have 24 ZARpoints

Mike

[Flame]

The_Hog, on Jul 6 2004, 07:45 PM, said:

I repeat my question, "How do you get to a S contract?"

Do you really cant imagine even one hand that bidding 1nt will give you a better score then bidding 1sp ?
The way to solve this question is not simple and not clearcut, its a big work (not worth doing atleast for me) of checking many many hands.
Again never said 1sp is wrong.

[the hog]

"Do you really cant imagine even one hand that bidding 1nt will give you a better score then bidding 1sp ?"

No, not when I will play in 3N off 1 with 4S making at the other table opposite:

AKxx
AKQxx
xx
Qx

Luis was talking about how pd can evaluate a singleton S opposite Txxx in a high D contract, (5, 6 or 7Ds). A high D contract is a LONG way away. Partner has opened with a 1 level bid after all. As I stated previously the most likely games are 4M and 3NT. 1S tells the least lie on the hand.

The second point is I have a partner. Why should I deliberately mislead my partner in the decision making process. Do I think I am so good that I can mastermind the auction? If you are trying to build up a partnership, as you stated in the post on psyching, the best lesson greater experience and maturity can teach you, when "Flame" eventually becomes "Fire", is to allow your partner to contribute and not to mastermind the bidding.

[Trpltrbl]

Quote

The second point is I have a partner. Why should I deliberately mislead my partner in the decision making process. Do I think I am so good that I can mastermind the auction?

Totally agree.

Mike

[cherdano]

Hi Kathryn,

you see that you posted a difficult problem hand, as the experts here disagree severely :-) I think it's a good hand to talk about some hand evaluation.

I don't know whether you considered a 2♦ response at your first bid. You probably learned that you need 11 points for this bid, and you only have 10, but consider:
1. Your 8 HCP contain AK, which makes them good points.
2. Your 2 long suit points in diamonds come from a suit headed by AKJ, so you should be proud of them!
3. Even considering this, you could have 6-3-2-2 distribution, but you have 6-4-2-1, which plays much better.
So you have lots of plus to your 10 points, the only minus is that the singleton is in partner's suit (a big minus, to admit). So this hand seems definitely worth a SAYC 2/1 response, and I would bid 2♦ if I played SAYC.

But there is nothing wrong with 1♠.

Now after 3♣ by partner, you have your two short suits in partners long suits. Misfit! This is a big minus, and you should try to slow down the auction. If you play this as natural, 3♦ would be a good bid IMO. If you play this as artificial 4th suit forcing, then I think 3NT is the simplest and most practical bid. You know you have more than enough points for game, but you have no fit, so 3NT is the natural place to play. It also warns your partner that there might be a misfit. I might also bid 3♥ like Ben, but I think it is dangerous if your partner doesn't know you could have this hand. From his point of view, you might still have a game forcing hand with 3 hearts after all! 4♣ should show 4 cards (since partner usually just has 4 clubs, or might even have only 3, as Ben pointed out), so this bid was a mistake.

And finally, don't worry about having ended in a terrible contract. Such extreme distributions are hard to bid, since point count doesn't help to evaluate the hands at all. If you had the ♣K instead of ♦AKJ, your partner might have made 7♥ opposite your 3 points.

[Free]

The_Hog, on Jul 7 2004, 02:22 AM, said:

"Do you really cant imagine even one hand that bidding 1nt will give you a better score then bidding 1sp ?"

No, not when I will play in 3N off 1 with 4S making at the other table opposite:

AKxx
AKQxx
xx
Qx

Luis was talking about how pd can evaluate a singleton S opposite Txxx in a high D contract, (5, 6 or 7Ds). A high D contract is a LONG way away. Partner has opened with a 1 level bid after all. As I stated previously the most likely games are 4M and 3NT. 1S tells the least lie on the hand.

The second point is I have a partner. Why should I deliberately mislead my partner in the decision making process. Do I think I am so good that I can mastermind the auction? If you are trying to build up a partnership, as you stated in the post on psyching, the best lesson greater experience and maturity can teach you, when "Flame" eventually becomes "Fire", is to allow your partner to contribute and not to mastermind the bidding.

Sorry to say this Ron, but how in the world will you miss a ♠ fit with such hand? Opener will rebid 2♠ reverse, and you might try for slam, ending in 4 or 5♠ probably ...

[badderzboy]

Hi all,

As this question is in the BIL section, I think that the question is one of best bidding practice for us BILlies and that must be to bid 1♠ as partner has not denied 4♠ and we have a weak hand and if we do end up in a NT contract at least opps may not lead spades as a bid suit if we have a complete misfit. The hand is borderline for a 2♦ bid as it is 10+ with length points and the problem goes away

The next thing is not to open 1♠ with xxxxx in spades and a 2-5-4-2 hand and 14 pts

Steve

[the hog]

"Opener will rebid 2♠ reverse"

No Frederick, why would he? Read some of the earlier posts I made as to the meaning of a 2S bid now - as responder has denied 4S, the 2S bid can have various meanings. In my partnership for example it would now show 15(4)(3). Ok many don't play this , but most good partnerships would play that it shows concentrated values, not a 4 card suit. Why would you show 4S when partner has DENIED 4S? Don't forget also that in some partnerships this will show 6H and 5S. Now THAT is a gross distortion I am sure you would agree, and should lead to responder bidding 4S on 3 card support with a suitable hand. Sure 4S may make in the 4-3 fit, but....

Also Frederick, I am sure that in your normal partnerships you have some means of showing this hand type. We certainly do, but this forum is not the vehicle to discuss it.

One thing is certainly true - in a regular partnership you need to discuss what a 1Major response is. We have it very easy in our partnership as we play full Mafia, but seriously that has nothing to do with me saying 1S is automatic here. I know Luis hates this style, based on some posts last year.

Cheers, Ron

[whereagles]

I really should mind my own business.. but for the sake of the game, I must say this.

Luis: saying to a beginner that his 1S bid was "a criminal offense" is very bad publicity for bridge. Please try and be more relaxed, at least towards beginners.

[luis]

whereagles, on Jul 7 2004, 11:31 AM, said:

I really should mind my own business.. but for the sake of the game, I must say this.

Luis: saying to a beginner that his 1S bid was "a criminal offense" is very bad publicity for bridge. Please try and be more relaxed, at least towards beginners.

Dear Whereagles

Beginners know that I respect them and I'd never try to offend them or make them feel bad about a bid. I just wanted to point out what I think about this style of bidding. If I say something is a "criminal offense" you should know I'm using the Luis' code of laws :-).
There're many books and many styles as an example I agree with Ron in about 90% of the problems posted here and I strongly disagree with him in every single problem where responder has xxxx in a major and AKxxxx in a minor :-)