[luis]

The_Hog, on Jul 7 2004, 07:35 AM, said:

"Opener will rebid 2♠ reverse"

No Frederick, why would he? Read some of the earlier posts I made as to the meaning of a 2S bid now - as responder has denied 4S, the 2S bid can have various meanings. In my partnership for example it would now show 15(4)(3). Ok many don't play this , but most good partnerships would play that it shows concentrated values, not a 4 card suit. Why would you show 4S when partner has DENIED 4S? Don't forget also that in some partnerships this will show 6H and 5S. Now THAT is a gross distortion I am sure you would agree, and should lead to responder bidding 4S on 3 card support with a suitable hand. Sure 4S may make in the 4-3 fit, but....

Also Frederick, I am sure that in your normal partnerships you have some means of showing this hand type. We certainly do, but this forum is not the vehicle to discuss it.

One thing is certainly true - in a regular partnership you need to discuss what a 1Major response is. We have it very easy in our partnership as we play full Mafia, but seriously that has nothing to do with me saying 1S is automatic here. I know Luis hates this style, based on some posts last year.

Cheers, Ron

Ron,

You have your bidding style in your system: "always bid a major first" so your pd will KNOW you can have a better minor when you bid 1h-1s. While your approach may or may not be closer to "standard" than mine it's not absolutely standard since by rule you MUST bid 1s due to systemic considerations, one of them pd not being able to reverse after 1h-1N with 5 hearts and 4 spades since you already denied 4.

You say "1s automatic" because you are forced to bid 1s in your system, playing SAYC 2d, 1N and 1s are valid options and there's no "automatic" bid. Ben and I choose 1N, some others choose 2d and some will choose 1s. Automatic?

Playing natural opener can reverse with 5 hearts and 4 spades even when he suspects pd doesn't have 4 just to describe his hand, he doesn't have any other bid.You can pretend a player learning SAYC will take 1h-1N;2s as not showing spades. So as long as opener bids naturally there's very little danger in not bidding xxxx of spades after 1h since opener will reverse if he does have a good hand with spades.

Being this a beginers forum I think that "don't bid horrible suits" or "threat xxxx as a 3 card suit" is far a better rule than "always bid your majors first" which is a complete distortion of natural bidding since you are supossed to bid your longer and better suits first and then your side suits. While I can accept your "theory" as one viable option that I don't like I really don't think it's a good advice for beginners.

Luis

[whereagles]

Well, just keep in mind not all newbies manage to guess your writing style correctly the first time they read a post of yours

[hrothgar]

Personally, I am very unconvinced as to the logic of a 1NT response.

Lets consider what 1NT response does/does not promise:

1NT denies a 4 card major. We're playing SAYC here, and there isn't any notion of biddable suits. While this doesn't rule out a 1NT response, it is a major flaw.

1NT suggests a balanced hand which will normally hold at least a doubleton in support of Hearts. Here, once again, there are exceptions, however, bidding 1NT on a 4=1=6=2 is another major flaw.

Regular readers of these forums are well aware that I am happy to take liberties with certain bids. For example, suppose that partner opened 1C and I held

5432
K52
QT9
KT3

I'd probably respond 1NT rather than introducing my Spade "suit". However, the hand in question is far too much of a distortion.

I far prefer to bid 1S or even 2D rather than 1NT.

[whereagles]

Well... I don't believe there's such a thing as a unique and "correct" approach to bidding this hand. Decisions as close as this one are a matter of style and personal preference. To argue one approach is clearly superior is an unsustainable thesis.

I kinda like the both plans, actually. Opposite a weak partner I'd sure bid 1NT, just to make sure I play the hand. Opposite a strong pard, if he's from the "never bypass a 4-card major" brigade, I'd definitely bid 1S. That'll keep him happy and a happy partner is worth many points

From a technical viewpoint, one problem with bidding 1NT is if it goes

1H 1NT
2S ??
(2S = usual reverse, 45 shape with 16+ points. And don't tell me opener should bypass his spades - I don't think that's helpful.)

Now what do you bid? 4S looks right (or even a forcing 3S), but partner won't find out about the diamond suit. After all, you could have bid this way with Txxx xx KJxx KQx. On the other hand you can't bid 3D, as pard might pass that, fearing you have xxx xx KQJxxx xx. 4D as a sort of fit-bid would be ideal, but it can be misinterpreted as control bid. (It shouldn't, but it could.)

All this goes far beyond beginner level, so for that reason I would recommend a newbie to just bid 1S.

[OSH]

whereagles, on Jul 7 2004, 09:54 AM, said:

1H 1NT
2S ??
(2S = usual reverse, 45 shape with 16+ points. And don't tell me opener should bypass his spades - I don't think that's helpful.)

Now what do you bid? 4S looks right (or even a forcing 3S), but partner won't find out about the diamond suit. After all, you could have bid this way with Txxx xx KJxx KQx. On the other hand you can't bid 3D, as pard might pass that, fearing you have xxx xx KQJxxx xx. 4D as a sort of fit-bid would be ideal, but it can be misinterpreted as control bid. (It shouldn't, but it could.)

When I played SAYC, after
1H 1NT
2S ??
with my regular pd I played a Lebehnsol style 2NT, and pd bid 3C if he is minimum. In this way the direct 3D bid now is forcing .

PS: hrothgar, you have 14 cards!

[whereagles]

Hum... that's not a fool-proof solution either. Suppose it goes

1H 1NT
2S 3D (forcing)
3NT 4S

is partner going to understand you have good diamonds plus residual spade fit, or will he think 4S is a cue with a solid or semi-solid diamond suit?

[the hog]

"You say "1s automatic" because you are forced to bid 1s in your system, "

My last post on this topic as quite frankly this is getting boring.

No Luis, had you read my post more carefully you would note that I quite clearly said:

"but seriously that has nothing to do with me saying 1S is automatic here".

Actually I think teaching beginners/intermediates to bypass their suits and convolute the bidding is not good advice.

[OSH]

whereagles, on Jul 7 2004, 10:50 AM, said:

Hum... that's not a fool-proof solution either. Suppose it goes

1H 1NT
2S 3D (forcing)
3NT 4S

is partner going to understand you have good diamonds plus residual spade fit, or will he think 4S is a cue with a solid or semi-solid diamond suit?

I limited my hand with the 1NT bid (by the way, I wouldn't have by-passed the S), after a reverse, if I'm not interested in the actual strenght of partner and bid 3D directly, it is forcing manche.
So:
1H 1NT
2S 3D
3NT 4S is to play

1H 1NT
2S 3D
3NT 4D shows a solid or semi-solid diamond suit.
I found that to have a clear distinction between a forcing bid and a weak bid is very useful in this situation.

[whereagles]

Ah, I see. Good bidding