[Fluffy]

dealer south, vulnerable NS

♠7
♥AQ3
♦QJ10875
♣K32

1♦-(1♠)-2♥-(4♠)
??

[Jlall]

Sure, 5H.

[gnasher]

4NT, two places to play. I suppose you're going to tell me that's Keycard?

[Jlall]

gnasher, on Dec 12 2009, 08:26 AM, said:

4NT, two places to play.  I suppose you're going to tell me that's Keycard?

FWIW I wanted to bid this since diamonds will FREQUENTLY play better but since it isn't even a poll option, I am going to guess they just play it as KC.

A lot of people actually think 4N here should be keycard becuase:

With 6-4 in the minors you would double 4S. With more than that you can bid 5C.

and

Support with support, so this kind of hand is not possible

and

they forget that they have no way to slow a slam TRY, whereas if you play 4N as 2 places to play, it will often go 5C from partner, and now 5H is a clear slam try. Sure sometimes partner bids 5D, but you still have more info and can't be in a worse spot to guess than just bidding 5H/6H to begin with.

FWIW I think playing keycard in an auction like this is terrible. If you really want to give up on 2 places to play, at least play 4N as a slam TRY in hearts. It is way more valuable to be able to intelligently issue a slam try than to have to guess between keycard and a simple 5H bid. But giving up on 2 places to play sucks. Find the right fit, then worry about slam later.

[Fluffy]

One table raise dand the other passed, one gathered -420 in 4♠ and the other +100 in 5♠X. 5♥ would had been 1 down

Partner had

♠xx
♥KJ9xxx
♦Kxx
♣Qx

[Jlall]

Well passing is lol.

[gnasher]

Jlall, on Dec 12 2009, 11:36 PM, said:

Well passing is lol.

Maybe it was forcing on one side of the table?

[nigel_k]

Does anyone have a good set of rules/guidelines as to when 4NT is Blackwood and when it is choice of games in these kind of auctions?

[aguahombre]

Would have been helpful to define 2H.

[pooltuna]

aguahombre, on Dec 13 2009, 03:39 PM, said:

Would have been helpful to define 2H.

looks like another successful NFB

[gnasher]

nigel_k, on Dec 13 2009, 09:33 PM, said:

Does anyone have a good set of rules/guidelines as to when 4NT is Blackwood and when it is choice of games in these kind of auctions?

How about this one: 4NT is only RKCB if we have already agreed a suit, or it can't be anything else. That is, you can't agree a suit by bidding 4NT.

That still leaves the question of when it's two places to play and when it's natural. I think it's two places to play if:
- the opponents have just bid something at the four level, and
- we have two playable strains below what they've bid
but natural otherwise.

[aguahombre]

pooltuna, on Dec 13 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Dec 13 2009, 03:39 PM, said:

Would have been helpful to define 2H.

looks like another successful NFB

Are you sure that is how it was intended? looks like a wobbler to me. On this hand 5H seems right no matter how 2H was intended (NFB, force, or GF), but for other opening bids it would make a difference whether to use the 4NT tool or not.