[pirate22]

you open 1n/t (15/17) pass-pard 2cl-pass. you bid either 2h/2sp/2d- pass-now pard bids 2n/t to either of your responses,
WHAT IS ONE SUPPOSED TO DO-bid 3n/t with max-take a view with 15,or bid 3 with minimum,but have a 5 card minor.???

Assume its IMP's or Teams-vuln non/vuln---important/but not important.
Take into account pard may be 4/1/4/4 or 4/3/2/4 what he will not have, is 4 cards to the response you give thus the dilema,also assume your level of dummy play,rightly or wrongly is of a good standard.
Is there a good criteria out there,is it the entire resposibility of the 2cl(stayman bidder)

I raise another good point--irrespective of what you or your pard plays-sayc/sayc 2/1-acol and others no one puts down discard play???? nor card play, one assumes standard leads,and assume low enc, is this factor laid in stone?
agree one can fill in a cc to give ones preferences,but there is not enough room in ones profile to cover this point-but on many occasions ones partner never looks at profile----------I always look,and if nothing stated i ask,but then opps come in with "faster please".

regards

[Trinidad]

pirate22, on Nov 5 2009, 06:16 AM, said:

I raise another good point--irrespective of what you or your pard plays-sayc/sayc 2/1-acol and others  no one puts down discard play???? nor card play, one assumes standard leads,and assume low enc, is this factor laid in stone?
agree one can fill in a cc to give ones preferences,but there is not enough room in ones profile to cover this point-but on many occasions ones partner never looks at profile----------I always look,and if nothing stated i ask,but then opps come in with "faster please".

regards

For me, defensive leads and signals are very important in a partnership. But on BBO usually I don't ask if there is little time. I either play what is on partner's card or (if the card doesn't mention it) I look at what he has played on the first (few) board(s). Then I will know his methods (or lack thereof ). I do the same for the opponents carding (but figuring out what partner does is more important).

Rik

[Trinidad]

pirate22, on Nov 5 2009, 06:16 AM, said:

you open 1n/t (15/17) pass-pard 2cl-pass.
you bid either 2h/2sp/2d- pass-now pard bids 2n/t to either of your responses,
WHAT IS ONE SUPPOSED TO DO

Pass with 15. Bid 3NT with 17. With 16: Think for about a minute to tell the opps that you have exactly 16 and then flip a coin.

(Bridge tip for when you have 16: Decide before you open 1NT whether you will accept an invitation in NT. Decide before you reply to Stayman whether you will accept an invitation in your four card suit. Then you can respond to the invitation in tempo.)

Rik

[Old York]

pirate22, on Nov 5 2009, 06:16 AM, said:

you open 1n/t (15/17) pass-pard 2cl-pass.                                                      you bid either 2h/2sp/2d- pass-now pard bids 2n/t to either of your responses,
WHAT IS ONE SUPPOSED TO DO-bid 3n/t with max-take a view with 15,or bid 3 with minimum,but have a 5 card minor.???

Assume its IMP's or Teams-vuln non/vuln---important/but not important.
Take into account pard may be 4/1/4/4 or 4/3/2/4 what he will not have, is 4 cards to the response you give thus the dilema,also assume your level of dummy play,rightly or wrongly is of a good standard.
Is there a good criteria out there,is it the entire resposibility of the 2cl(stayman bidder)

I raise another good point--irrespective of what you or your pard plays-sayc/sayc 2/1-acol and others  no one puts down discard play???? nor card play, one assumes standard leads,and assume low enc, is this factor laid in stone?
agree one can fill in a cc to give ones preferences,but there is not enough room in ones profile to cover this point-but on many occasions ones partner never looks at profile----------I always look,and if nothing stated i ask,but then opps come in with "faster please".

regards

Your Partner's 2nt is exactly the same now, as it would be in a direct raise 1NT - 2NT. Stayman is used to ask opener to show a 4 card major, it has no other meaning. Opener should re-value his hand and bid naturally, passing with 15hcp or bad 16hcp, bidding the best game with 17hcp or good 16hcp
Bidding 3NT with 15hcp and a 5-card suit is usually a bad gamble, which might work
I do not know what you mean by Stayman abuse, unless the 2♣ bidder holds no major suit?

The only complexity is if opener has both majors
1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2NT - 3♠/4♠ would then be correct

Both sides should announce system and carding methods at the start of each round
If you say "Sayc" then carding methods should be standard (Hi=Enc). If you deviate from this you may be penalised

Tony

[babalu1997]

The real stayman abuse is this:

it is to ask stayman with a balanced hand and one 4 card major, when partner denies a major, or bids he other one, you just helped opps count the hands on opening lead.

got points? bid 3nt.

I bid 1nt precisely to tell partner all i have in one bid, and partner now does all the work.

[barmar]

I don't know about other parts of the world, but if a player is in the US, standard defensive signalling is high encourages. If they have UDCA in their profile, it means low encourages.

[Old York]

babalu1997, on Nov 5 2009, 03:41 PM, said:

it is to ask stayman with a balanced hand and one 4 card major .... bid 3nt

This was discussed in detail in another thread where 3NT score 54% but 4♠ scored 77% at matchpoints, At Imps, 3NT might be the "practical" bid

Tony

[barmar]

Old York, on Nov 5 2009, 10:39 AM, said:

babalu1997, on Nov 5 2009, 03:41 PM, said:

it is to ask stayman with a balanced hand and one 4 card major .... bid 3nt

This was discussed in detail in another thread where 3NT score 54% but 4♠ scored 77% at matchpoints, At Imps, 3NT might be the "practical" bid

Tony

If you'll take the same number of tricks in either contract, 3NT will have a higher matchpoint score as well. So it's a matter of judgement (and maybe even some guesswork) whether you think being in a suit will generate an additional trick. It often depends on the location of your strength; if it's mostly in the 3-card suits, you're probably not going to get many tricks by ruffing, and the opponents won't be able to knock out all your stoppers in those suits before you make your contract.

[aguahombre]

And, having no judgement skill --and being a lousy guesser, I find comfort in stayman and puppet (both), jacoby, and the other mundane tools which we simple folk have learned to use (and when to use them).

We have found that the 4-4 major game (or 5-4) plays better enough times so that we do not lament our lack of imagination.

[suokko]

Trinidad, on Nov 5 2009, 11:01 AM, said:

pirate22, on Nov 5 2009, 06:16 AM, said:

you open 1n/t (15/17) pass-pard 2cl-pass.
you bid either 2h/2sp/2d- pass-now pard bids 2n/t to either of your responses,
WHAT IS ONE SUPPOSED TO DO

Pass with 15. Bid 3NT with 17. With 16: Think for about a minute to tell the opps that you have exactly 16 and then flip a coin.

(Bridge tip for when you have 16: Decide before you open 1NT whether you will accept an invitation in NT. Decide before you reply to Stayman whether you will accept an invitation in your four card suit. Then you can respond to the invitation in tempo.)

Rik

What about my good 14 count? May I raise to game? (PS. I do that quite often but usually only to 4 of major)

So it may matter more whatvalues you have and what contract you try to bid.

Just to note that real abuse of stayman is what I do sometimes when I only hold 3 card major and I'm looking or 4-3 (or theretical 5-3 fit) instead of normal 3NT. There is sometimes hands that are worth looking for moisian fit. Same way I sometimes respond with 3 card major to 1m to see if I can find the 4-3 major fit to play in.

If I have opened 1NT with 2-4-(52) I'm most often good enough to raise to game unless I hold that 14 hcp.

[barmar]

suokko, on Nov 5 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

What about my good 14 count? May I raise to game? (PS. I do that quite often but usually only to 4 of major)

A good 14 count is still just a minimum 1NT. In NT auctions, responder is the captain, since he knows your range. If he invites, you go to game if you're near the top of your range, play in a part score if you're near the bottom. And how much closer to the bottom can you be than below it?

In distributional hands, you can upgrade your hand once you've found a fit. But NT hands, by definition, are not very distributional. If you find a major fit you could add a little for a doubleton, but that still doesn't usually turn a minimum into a max.

[kenberg]

I suppose I do what is pretty standard and has already been mentioned; Virtually never bid 3 with 15. always with 17, and sometimes with 16.

One point that I have never seen mentioned: Perhaps you should be slightly more cautious after 1N-2C-2D-2N than after 1N-2C-2S-2N. The reason is this: After the first auction, partner might be 4-4 in the majors, and partners tend to push a little to bid 2C on that holding. Maybe they shouldn't but they, and I, do. If he is pushing, and if as it seems the hands are not fitting that well, 8 tricks may well be the limit. In the second auction, they probably have a fully legit invitational hand. I wouldn't let this logic dominate my thinking, but in a close case it is something to consider.

On carding I assume standard carding (which means low discourages, not encourages) until I have reason to believe otherwise.

I am not so sure I have said anything new here, and I am sure nothing profound. Just middle of the road thinking.

[Vampyr]

Old York, on Nov 5 2009, 03:12 PM, said:

I do not know what you mean by Stayman abuse, unless the 2♣ bidder holds no major suit?

The only complexity is if opener has both majors
1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2NT - 3♠/4♠ would then be correct

It would be correct if the Stayman bidder promised a 4-card major, but many do not. This is most commonly seen in partnerships that do not play 1NT-2NT as natural, and therefore must go through Stayman to show any balanced invitational hand.

[barmar]

Vampyr, on Nov 5 2009, 09:31 PM, said:

Old York, on Nov 5 2009, 03:12 PM, said:

I do not know what you mean by Stayman abuse, unless the 2♣ bidder holds no major suit?

The only complexity is if opener has both majors
1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2NT - 3♠/4♠ would then be correct

It would be correct if the Stayman bidder promised a 4-card major, but many do not. This is most commonly seen in partnerships that do not play 1NT-2NT as natural, and therefore must go through Stayman to show any balanced invitational hand.

If you play that, responder in the above auction usually denies a 4-card spade suit. If he has an invitational hand with spades, he should bid 2♠ rather than 2NT. So there's no point in opener looking for a spade fit. Either pass 2NT or bid 3NT.

[mike777]

pirate22, on Nov 5 2009, 12:16 AM, said:

you open 1n/t (15/17) pass-pard 2cl-pass.                                                      you bid either 2h/2sp/2d- pass-now pard bids 2n/t to either of your responses,
WHAT IS ONE SUPPOSED TO DO-bid 3n/t with max-take a view with 15,or bid 3 with minimum,but have a 5 card minor.???

Assume its IMP's or Teams-vuln non/vuln---important/but not important.
Take into account pard may be 4/1/4/4 or 4/3/2/4 what he will not have, is 4 cards to the response you give thus the dilema,also assume your level of dummy play,rightly or wrongly is of a good standard.
Is there a good criteria out there,is it the entire resposibility of the 2cl(stayman bidder)

I raise another good point--irrespective of what you or your pard plays-sayc/sayc 2/1-acol and others  no one puts down discard play???? nor card play, one assumes standard leads,and assume low enc, is this factor laid in stone?
agree one can fill in a cc to give ones preferences,but there is not enough room in ones profile to cover this point-but on many occasions ones partner never looks at profile----------I always look,and if nothing stated i ask,but then opps come in with "faster please".

regards

I found your post very confusing....


if pard bid 2c and then 2nt....I pass with minimum......wtp?

If we miss game....i blame pard and tell her to bid 3nt next time ....

[barmar]

Mike, beginners often need refreshers, even for basics like this. There's a lot to assimilate when first learning bridge. After a while most of it becomes second nature, and it's hard to remember how confusing it was when you were first learning.

[gwnn]

the OP sounds like many things but not a beginner looking for refreshers.

[barmar]

Yeah, I just reread the post, and I agree. "Take a view" is not a beginner phrase.

Now I'm guessing that he did take a view, got a bad result, and is looking for justification for his unusual action.

[Old York]

barmar, on Nov 5 2009, 04:53 PM, said:

It often depends on the location of your strength; if it's mostly in the 3-card suits, you're probably not going to get many tricks by ruffing, and the opponents won't be able to knock out all your stoppers in those suits before you make your contract.

I hate being forced to ruff with high trumps, the lower the trumps in dummy, the better suited they are for ruffing with. Chances are that you only need one ruffing trick anyway, which 4-4 fit will give you on (almost) all occasions

Reading this entire thread just shows how often Stayman is "abused" and gets players into the wrong contract at the wrong level. If a "judgement" call of 3NT can produce 10 tricks, maybe 4♠ could produce 11. Playing unusual contracts will most often lead to unusual scores

Simulations have proved that an extra trick will be available, even if dummy is 4333 or 3433, which may seem illogical to many

Tony

[pirate22]

TY all,for input----------i used the word abuse,may i rephrase,having read the replies.
when pard opens 1n/t if responder uses stayman they should hold both majors,if not holding decide as responder and bid 2n/t, or pass1/nt--that has to be better,the opener will pass or bid 3,the fact that one could miss a 4/4 major fit,i think is a boon and not a hinderence.

reference card play and discards,again good replies especially the contributor,that watches his pards,and opps card plays in the first few hands,is what i usually do,and then suggest different to partner for his agreement.
regards