[kenberg]

The view that one should use Stayman over 1NT only if holding both majors is, as I am sure you are aware, not standard and I suspect not shared by many. You will have trouble if you assume this agreement holds without discussion. My guess is you will also have trouble getting people to play it that way, but of course I cannot be sure of that.

Holding, for example

AQxx
xx
KJxx
xxx

I certainly would bid 2C. Over a 2H reply, I bid 3NT. I seriously doubt anyone could get me to stop doing this.

Bridge allows for unusual views, it is one of the charms of the game. Your approach, if I am understanding you correctly, definitely qualifies.

Or possibly I misunderstand?

[Old York]

pirate22, on Nov 6 2009, 03:50 PM, said:

the fact that one could miss a 4/4 major fit,i think is a boon and not a hinderence

Scoring: MP

4♥ by South
J♦ lead

---

Hope you can all see that 3NT fails quickly on a Spade lead when 4♥ is making an easy 11 tricks

Many thanks to Ron Klinger for this hand
Tony

[pirate22]

Last 2 inputs kernberg and old york--there is no problem with these hands responder(2cl) has values to arrive at the correct final contract,

I am referring to responders hand that does not have values i.e

xxxx--xxxx--xx--xxx and say 6/7/8 points and over 2cl pard bids 2d,
and lets say he responds 2hts/or 2spades--where are we going???
regards.

or even xxxx--xxxx-x-xxxx 1n/t--p--2cl?--pass--2d--pass now what,spread the 6/7/8/poins around

[kenberg]

I figured I must have misunderstood. Anyway, we seem to be getting into judgment calls on hypothetical hands and that gets tough to stay on track. Methods vary with weak hands and I have no strong views. Generally I prefer to pass when I don't have anything but that is sort of old fashioned.

[Old York]

pirate22, on Nov 6 2009, 10:29 PM, said:

I am referring to responders hand that does not have values i.e

It did not occur to me that partner would bid 2♣ with only 6 or 7 points, this is a silly gamble which deserves to fail. With 8 points, game is possible opposite 17hcp, so rebidding 2NT is fine, this is why opener must pass with a minimum

Tony

[Trinidad]

With 6-7 points, you just pass. Partner will have a decent shot at making 1NT with 21-24 points.

There are methods for dealing with weak (0-5) hands and 4-4 majors. But these methods are non standard. So, in practice with an unknown partner, just pass 1NT and hope for 5 or 6 tricks.

The exception is when you have a weak hand and can play in hearts, spades and diamonds. You need to think of a hand like ♠Jxx ♥Jxxx ♦Jxxxx ♣x. If you bid 2♣, you will pass any of partner's rebids and you expect to be in a better contract than 1NT. This approach I consider standard. (If your partner bids 2NT to show both majors (or to deny both and show a maximum, or whatever) then you are unlucky and met a partner who doesn't play standard.)

Mike Lawrence once wrote that hands with a singleton or void in clubs can never pass 1NT.

Rik

[kenberg]

I am a great admirer of the writings of Mike Lawrence but I like to have five diamonds when I bid 2D, intending to pass any response. Partners do open a no trump on 3=3=2=5 hands. A 3=4=5=1 pattern is fine. Partner will bid 2H of he has both majors and 2D if he has neither. Only if partner has spades but not hearts will this go wrong, and then you are in a 4-3 fit with a stiff so there is some chance of recovery. If partner has five spades nad responds 3S instead of 2S. you may be higher than planned but you are in a fit and your hand has improved so no complaints.

But I am not big on 2C with a 4=4=4=1. Maybe at matchpoints where if 1N and 2M are both making you want the 2M score. But a response of 2D could put you in a silly contract.

[babalu1997]

Old York, on Nov 6 2009, 03:28 PM, said:

pirate22, on Nov 6 2009, 03:50 PM, said:

the fact that one could miss a 4/4 major fit,i think is a boon and not a hinderence

Scoring: MP

4♥ by South
J♦ lead

---

Hope you can all see that 3NT fails quickly on a Spade lead when 4♥ is making an easy 11 tricks

Many thanks to Ron Klinger for this hand
Tony

But tony, bridge deals are like the bible, if you search long enough you will fina a passage to justify your views.

In billions of delas i am sure you can find a few thousand.

Furthermore, bridge authors, even respectable ones, colour their writing with their ow experiences and you will see that none other then Terence Reese would disagree with Ron Klinger.

Ron is a gret author btw, but especially in the contested auction.

[babalu1997]

pirate22, on Nov 6 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

Last 2 inputs kernberg and old york--there is no problem with these hands responder(2cl) has values to arrive at the correct final contract,

I am referring to responders hand that does not have values i.e

xxxx--xxxx--xx--xxx and say 6/7/8 points and over 2cl pard bids 2d,
and lets say he responds 2hts/or 2spades--where are we going???
regards.

or even xxxx--xxxx-x-xxxx 1n/t--p--2cl?--pass--2d--pass now what,spread the 6/7/8/poins around

You are not going anywhere, your partner is trying to bid to protect, ie trying to add some ruffing power to a deal, even if it means playing at the 2 level with seven trumps.

1nt is very difficult if scottie cannot beam you up to dummy.

the agreement for play there is in fact called "non-forcing stayman", which is an euphemism for "garbage stayman".

as Trinidad said, many authors reason that way.

[Trinidad]

kenberg, on Nov 7 2009, 03:42 PM, said:

I am a great admirer of the writings of Mike Lawrence but I like to have five diamonds when I bid 2D, intending to pass any response. Partners do open a no trump on 3=3=2=5 hands. A 3=4=5=1 pattern is fine. Partner will bid 2H of he has both majors and 2D if he has neither. Only if partner has spades but not hearts will this go wrong, and then you are in a 4-3 fit with a stiff so there is some chance of recovery. If partner has five spades nad responds 3S instead of 2S. you may be higher than planned but you are in a fit and your hand has improved so no complaints.

But I am not big on 2C with a 4=4=4=1. Maybe at matchpoints where if 1N and 2M are both making you want the 2M score. But a response of 2D could put you in a silly contract.

I have more confidence in Mike Lawrence than in my ability to quote him correctly...

This means that I agree that you should pass with a 4441, and that probably Mike Lawrence thinks the same.

Perhaps he wrote something like: "Never pass 1NT with a club void, rarely pass with a singleton."
I don't know!
HEEELLLLLPPPPPP!!!!!!

Rik

[babalu1997]

Trinidad, on Nov 7 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

kenberg, on Nov 7 2009, 03:42 PM, said:

I am a great admirer of the writings of Mike Lawrence but I like to have five diamonds when I bid 2D, intending to pass any response. Partners do open a no trump on 3=3=2=5 hands. A 3=4=5=1 pattern is fine. Partner will bid 2H of he has both majors and 2D if he has neither. Only if partner has spades but not hearts will this go wrong, and then you are in a 4-3 fit with a stiff so there is some chance of recovery. If partner has five spades nad responds 3S instead of 2S. you may be higher than planned but you are in a fit and your hand has improved so no complaints.

But I am not big on 2C with a 4=4=4=1. Maybe at matchpoints where if 1N and 2M are both making you want the 2M score. But a response of 2D could put you in a silly contract.

I have more confidence in Mike Lawrence than in my ability to quote him correctly...

This means that I agree that you should pass with a 4441, and that probably Mike Lawrence thinks the same.

Perhaps he wrote something like: "Never pass 1NT with a club void, rarely pass with a singleton."
I don't know!
HEEELLLLLPPPPPP!!!!!!

Rik

He likely NEVER said NEVER. No one uses that word in bridge, but here is something on garbage or drop dead stayman, which I actually learned named as non-forcing stayman-- 9different from the convention the precision bidders named so)

http://www.bridgehan...age_Stayman.htm

[pirate22]

babalu the hand u present via M lawrence xxxx-xxxx-xxx-x
obviously with no points even with say 1.2.3 points raises another topic,
Pard opens 1n/t next hand x's what now?
or P opens 1n/t " " passes you? either pass or bids 2cl,lets say u pass and 4th hand x's???
if you take action and bid 2cl-4th hand may pass??
Heading will be "redouble S.O.S"

[gwnn]

pirate what's your agenda? are you just looking to blow off some steam or would you like to educate BBF? or is it some other reason?

[pirate22]

Agenda, with due respect,plse explain BBF,no there is no agenda,just an inquiring mind, one is trying to improve ones game,The heading is General bridge discussion,
have i encroached or violated your psyche.?

[gwnn]

no i was just curious. i hope i did not encroach or violate your psyche.

BBF=bridge base forums

[babalu1997]

pirate22, on Nov 7 2009, 12:02 PM, said:

babalu the hand u present via M lawrence xxxx-xxxx-xxx-x
obviously with no points even with say 1.2.3 points raises another topic,
Pard opens 1n/t next hand x's what now?
or P opens 1n/t " " passes you? either pass or bids 2cl,lets say u pass and 4th hand x's???
if you take action and bid 2cl-4th hand may pass??
Heading will be "redouble S.O.S"

Now you changed the question, pirate, initally there was no double, lho was passing.

Pirate, you do not have to play garbage stayman, but it has advantages. If you have the garbage, protect right away-- it makes it difficult for rho to intervene

If you have a little more(6-9), pass, if this goes 1nt-p-p-DBLE -- leave it in , u get a good score.


Now, 1NT- DBLE - partners action is another question. The double itself is another question and your action depends on whethe DOUBLE is penalty or other conventional thing. after that double, your partnership has many more options-- systems on, systems off, redouble cuebid, etc... etc...

[shevek]

barmar, on Nov 6 2009, 02:32 AM, said:

Vampyr, on Nov 5 2009, 09:31 PM, said:

Old York, on Nov 5 2009, 03:12 PM, said:

I do not know what you mean by Stayman abuse, unless the 2♣ bidder holds no major suit?

The only complexity is if opener has both majors
1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2NT - 3♠/4♠ would then be correct

It would be correct if the Stayman bidder promised a 4-card major, but many do not. This is most commonly seen in partnerships that do not play 1NT-2NT as natural, and therefore must go through Stayman to show any balanced invitational hand.

If you play that, responder in the above auction usually denies a 4-card spade suit. If he has an invitational hand with spades, he should bid 2♠ rather than 2NT. So there's no point in opener looking for a spade fit. Either pass 2NT or bid 3NT.

I like to use Stayman on a range of weakish shapely hands. For instance:

♠QT54  ♥8  ♦AT4  ♣QT764

Stayman here gambles on a spade fit or landing in a better spot than 1NT. Mike Lawrence advocated this approach. Over 2♦/♥, you bid 2♠ to show this - weakish with 4 spades & a long minor.
As a corollary, 2NT over 2♥ would be the invite with 4 spades. This scheme rather depends on 2♣ guaranteeing a major.

[blackshoe]

Last night a couple of players showed up without partners, so I put 'em together. One suggested they play mini-NT. The other wasn't familiar with it, but was willing to give it a try. On one board, one opened 1NT on 11 HCP, the other (the one who'd suggested the agreement) bid 2♣ on a 4=4=5=0 1 count. The remaining 28 points were evenly divided amongst the other two hands, both of which had a decent 6 card suit (one was clubs, the other one of the majors). When responder passed opener's 2♦ bid, neither opponent bid! I don't remember how many tricks 2♦ made, but it was a top board for the mini-NT pair.

[Old York]

blackshoe, on Nov 8 2009, 04:27 AM, said:

Last night a couple of players showed up without partners, so I put 'em together. One suggested they play mini-NT. The other wasn't familiar with it, but was willing to give it a try. On one board, one opened 1NT on 11 HCP, the other (the one who'd suggested the agreement) bid 2♣ on a 4=4=5=0 1 count. The remaining 28 points were evenly divided amongst the other two hands, both of which had a decent 6 card suit (one was clubs, the other one of the majors). When responder passed opener's 2♦ bid, neither opponent bid! I don't remember how many tricks 2♦ made, but it was a top board for the mini-NT pair.

Weak notrump openings often have this effect. Here in the UK we used 12-14hcp as "standard" and often shut oppo out. If an oppo is sitting over the mini-nt with 14 or more hcp, then a double etc was advisable. Was the 1NT bid alerted as 10-12, or were oppo kept in the dark?

On the subject of deliberately concealing a 4 card major by refusing to bid Stayman 2♣, it occurs that this logic would also require you to jump to 3NT in response to partners 1♣/1♦ opening with any game going hand that did not include a 5 card major.
An Sayc 1♣ opening denies a 5 card major, but may contain a 4 card major, so the natural approach is for responder to show suits in ascending order (often bypassing a 4 card diamond suit). If you have no faith in the 4-4 major fit, then it makes sense to bypass these too?

Tony

[blackshoe]

Old York, on Nov 9 2009, 06:23 AM, said:

Was the 1NT bid alerted as 10-12, or were oppo kept in the dark?

The range was announced, as is required by the ACBL alert procedure.