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Do you open? Rule of 12?

#1 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2009-October-26, 20:30

Red vs White, after three passes you're looking at:

♠QJx
♥Jxx
♦Kx
♣KQxxx

What's your call? It's a butler tournament if you need to know...

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#2 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2009-October-26, 20:48

yes
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#3 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2009-October-26, 20:53

1C
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#4 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-October-26, 21:05

Hanoi5, on Oct 26 2009, 09:30 PM, said:

Red vs White, after three passes you're looking at:

♠QJx
♥Jxx
♦Kx
♣KQxxx

What's your call? It's a butler tournament if you need to know...

no if we open lite in first and second...otherwise ..yes
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#5 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 00:10

Is the Pope a Catholic?
Does a bear ***** in the woods?
Of course I open.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#6 User is offline   andy_h 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 05:07

Yes, 1♣
- Andy -

We are all connected to each other biologically, to the Earth chemically, and to the rest of the universe atomically.
We're in the universe, and the universe is in us.
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#7 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 06:24

OK I'll buck the trend :lol:

Aceless, quacky, scattered honors, poor spots (no T or 9 are shown), potentially worthless ♥J, and only the club suit to open which has no obstructive value. I pass. I open if I hold KQxxx in a major instead.
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#8 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 06:41

I would safe my energy for the comming boards.

This hand is a partscore battle. Why should I belive that we will outscore them?
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#9 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 09:41

3-3 in majors persuades me to open. Having 4+M 3xM fit possible.
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#10 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 09:44

1♣
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#11 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 09:52

ignorant of "butler" scoring, but I just considered the (perhaps silly) Pearson count, or the fact that there are 28 HCP in the other 3 hands --making it likely that my pard has enough to make it our hand. Also, if the opponents compete in a major, I have some quacks which might hurt them at their LAW level.

In the blind, I expect to make 1NT, which is better than nothing. Maybe I could add my points and my spades together and open a strong NT :P
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#12 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 09:53

1♣!

and I dont mean it's alertable.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#13 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 09:58

Hanoi5, on Oct 26 2009, 09:30 PM, said:

Red vs White, after three passes you're looking at:

♠QJx
♥Jxx
♦Kx
♣KQxxx

What's your call? It's a butler tournament if you need to know...

I don't know what Butler is either, but if you need a "Rule", it satisfies both
Rule-of-15 ( hcp + # of ♠ ) and Rule-of-18 ( Hcp + # of ♠ and ♥ ) .
Don Stenmark ( TWOferBRIDGE )
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#14 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 10:23

Hanoi5, on Oct 26 2009, 09:30 PM, said:

Red vs White, after three passes you're looking at:

♠QJx
♥Jxx
♦Kx
♣KQxxx

What's your call? It's a butler tournament if you need to know...

I reach in my pocket, take out my decider, and flip it. :P
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#15 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 10:28

TBH I think everyone goes through that phase where they start downgrading too often, especially with regards to opening with soft 12s and game forcing opposite an opener with a 12 count. You can always find negatives about a hand and focus on them.

When it comes down to it, you aren't going to win by downgrading often. Look for reasons not to downgrade. If you can find none, and then find many reasons to downgrade, it's probably reasonable to do so.

So what about this hand? We have a GOOD 5 card suit that we are going to get to open. Kx and QJx while not great are fine, the Q and J are worth more when together. A king is a good defensive value if partner starts doubling, and is a prime card. Those are lots of reasons not to downgrade.

Sure we have no aces, and we have a stranded jack, but in my experience winning players are not downgrading much. They're getting in there, they're getting to close contracts, and they're winning.

So don't downgrade this 12 count with 3 spades!
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#16 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 10:47

Jlall, on Oct 27 2009, 11:28 AM, said:

TBH I think everyone goes through that phase where they start downgrading too often, especially with regards to opening with soft 12s and game forcing opposite an opener with a 12 count. You can always find negatives about a hand and focus on them.

When it comes down to it, you aren't going to win by downgrading often. Look for reasons not to downgrade. If you can find none, and then find many reasons to downgrade, it's probably reasonable to do so.

So what about this hand? We have a GOOD 5 card suit that we are going to get to open. Kx and QJx while not great are fine, the Q and J are worth more when together. A king is a good defensive value if partner starts doubling, and is a prime card. Those are lots of reasons not to downgrade.

Sure we have no aces, and we have a stranded jack, but in my experience winning players are not downgrading much. They're getting in there, they're getting to close contracts, and they're winning.

So don't downgrade this 12 count with 3 spades!

I like it here, I learn something every day :P

So, you expect the cases where opening this in 4th seat gives the opponents a major suit partscore to be in the minority? That was my concern, perhaps I should turn down my pessimism meter.
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
-gwnn
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#17 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 10:58

the fact that 3rd seat at fav, didn't do anything reduces the concern about opps getting a plus in a Major.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#18 User is offline   junyi_zhu 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 11:14

Hanoi5, on Oct 27 2009, 02:30 AM, said:

Red vs White, after three passes you're looking at:

♠QJx
♥Jxx
♦Kx
♣KQxxx

What's your call? It's a butler tournament if you need to know...

I pass, too many Qs and Js for a 4th seat opening. facing an average 7-8 HCP, this hand doesn't play very well. If I have one more spade, I'd open for sure.
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#19 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 11:17

junyi_zhu, on Oct 27 2009, 12:14 PM, said:

Hanoi5, on Oct 27 2009, 02:30 AM, said:

Red vs White, after three passes you're looking at:

♠QJx
♥Jxx
♦Kx
♣KQxxx

What's your call? It's a butler tournament if you need to know...

I pass, too many Qs and Js for a 4th seat opening. facing an average 7-8 HCP, this hand doesn't play very well. If I have one more spade, I'd open for sure.

You are missing 28, so partner's average is 9.33. In addition RHO passed in 3rd seat, so partner's average is probably pretty close to 10.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#20 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2009-October-27, 11:20

Yeah it is a huge edge to have so many more HCP than them on average, and 3-3 in the majors is not bad at all.
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