[Hanoi5]

They're red and you're white. You receive this beauty:

♠Q876
♥T532
♦KJ9
♣94

The tray comes with the following bids:

2♥ 3♣...

And your screenmate alerts you that 2♥ shows hearts+a minor at least 5-4 but could even be 5-6. It goes on:

...3♦ Pa

And it comes back:

3♥ Pa...

Your screenmate thinks a bit and then:

...4♦ Pa

And back again:

4♥ Pa...

Your screenmate passes and you...

2♥ 3♣ 3♦ Pa
3♥ Pa 4♦ Pa
4♥ Pa Pa ???

Your partner's 3♣ shows at least opening values. You might have asked what 3♦ or 4♦ or 3♥ or 4♥ mean, but I don't know yet if you did or what answer you got. You didn't ask much, just about 3♦ and were told it was natural.

[mich-b]

I ask my screenmate what is going on , and unless he convinces me that they knew all the time what they are doing (I doubt it) , and that his 3♦ was forcing (I doubt it) I double.

[Codo]

yes, double in absence of a convincing explanation- and even then.

[billw55]

My partner tells me I am not allowed to double for penalty. So I pass

[effervesce]

Obvious double given the information. The screenmate obviously just wanted to compete to 3♦, not reach game in hearts. Probable misfit for them with no source of tricks for the opps (given you have diamonds bottled up). By the sounds of it your screenmate has void hearts (or at most a stiff heart, but that's less likely) as he may have passed 3♥ guessing that partner had misbid their hand.

Don't tell me you passed up on this opportunity? Free IMPs are always good. I'm guessing 4♥X would score +800 or so?

[gnasher]

It would be ridiculous to double without finding out what 3♦ and 4♦ meant.

For all you know 3♦ might an artificial raise, and 4♦ might be Keycard.

[Fluffy]

tastes like a double, at least if diamond bids haven't been alerted

[Trinidad]

For most people who play this convention 3♦ is een artificial heart raise (invitational or better). If you then go on after opener signed off in 3♥, you are making a slam try. But clearly, your screenmate should have alerted this, if this was the case.

Suppose you doubled and it turned out that your screenmate was making a slam try in hearts and they make 4♥ easily. If you now were mislead by the failure to alert, you are entitled to redress.

Rik

P.S. When playing with screens, it is fairly common that you are required not only to alert, but to write down the explanation immediately. Alerting without explaining basically shouldn't happen.

[gnasher]

Trinidad, on Oct 29 2009, 05:13 PM, said:

P.S. When playing with screens, it is fairly common that you are required not only to alert, but to write down the explanation immediately. Alerting without explaining basically shouldn't happen.

That sounds unnecessarily time-consuming. Where do they do that?

[jdonn]

Double? Seriously? PASS! Double is awful. If they had a misunderstanding you gain anyway. If they didn't, or they have extra values to compensate, you are just making a terrible double for no reason.

[pooltuna]

jdonn, on Oct 29 2009, 12:02 PM, said:

Double? Seriously? PASS! Double is awful. If they had a misunderstanding you gain anyway. If they didn't, or they have extra values to compensate, you are just making a terrible double for no reason.

Is this really a terrible double when ♣s and ♦s are placed badly for declarer, trumps are breaking badly and big enough to cause over ruff problems in ♣ and while ♠ are an unknown nevertheless they also rate to be badly placed? Do you EVER double for penalties?

[jdonn]

pooltuna, on Oct 29 2009, 12:50 PM, said:

jdonn, on Oct 29 2009, 12:02 PM, said:

Double? Seriously? PASS! Double is awful. If they had a misunderstanding you gain anyway. If they didn't, or they have extra values to compensate, you are just making a terrible double for no reason.

Is really a terrible double when...

YES! How do you know clubs are badly placed? How do you know declarer has more than one diamond? Are you really touting the massive strength of T532 of trumps? You act like I'm passing with KQJ98 of hearts or something lol. Our trumps suck, we have no aces, our hand is balanced, double is nothing but random wild speculation. Sure if your opponents are beginners or having a terrible misunderstanding then double will work (though passing gets a good score anyway). But why should that be the case?

[pooltuna]

jdonn, on Oct 29 2009, 12:53 PM, said:

pooltuna, on Oct 29 2009, 12:50 PM, said:

jdonn, on Oct 29 2009, 12:02 PM, said:

Double? Seriously? PASS! Double is awful. If they had a misunderstanding you gain anyway. If they didn't, or they have extra values to compensate, you are just making a terrible double for no reason.

Is really a terrible double when...

YES! How do you know clubs are badly placed? How do you know declarer has more than one diamond? Are you really touting the massive strength of T532 of trumps? You act like I'm passing with KQJ98 of hearts or something lol. Our trumps suck, we have no aces, our hand is balanced, double is nothing but random wild speculation. Sure if your opponents are beginners or having a terrible misunderstanding then double will work (though passing gets a good score anyway). But why should that be the case?

The proof is in the pudding! May we see the whole hand please OP! This is not MP BTW. Last I checked the more points you earned the more IMPs you got.

[Hanoi5]

Ok, but you're not gonna like it:

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=35112

[pooltuna]

Hanoi5, on Oct 29 2009, 01:02 PM, said:

Ok, but you're not gonna like it:

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=35112

Won't be the first time But you did tell us that the opponents were playing Muiderberg not Flannery.

[jdonn]

And if one of north's spades had been a club would anything be different?

In a way I think you were actually lucky there was no overtrick. Who would think north would have only 6 hearts?

[Codo]

So you think a Muiderberg 2 ♥ looks like:

J42
AKQ976
V
A862

Not remotly close actually.

Make it Jxx. AQxxx,x,Qxxx and this is typical. Now try to make 4 HEart opposite somethin equal to he actual south hand.... Or make it Jxx, AQxxxx,V,Qxxx and you are still not making.

[pooltuna]

Codo, on Oct 29 2009, 04:56 PM, said:

So you think a Muiderberg 2 ♥ looks like:

J42
AKQ976
V
A862

Not remotly close actually.

Make it Jxx. AQxxx,x,Qxxx and this is typical. Now try to make 4 HEart opposite somethin equal to he actual south hand.... Or make it Jxx, AQxxxx,V,Qxxx and you are still not making.

The problem is that they are red vs white and 2♥ by good opps does not make sense except as good suits ready to handle a double

[jdonn]

I was basing my answer on this thread, which explained the bid as "hearts+a minor at least 5-4 but could even be 5-6" but never said anything about it being weak/Muiderberg. The fact remains that the explanation of opener's hand only tells you how the strength of the opponents is split, but it does not tell you how much strength they have combined. In other words the weaker opener is the stronger responder is, unless you are calling them incompetent. It does not make a double any better.

[OleBerg]

So I doubled a 4♥ where the opponents had a misunderstanding, but got lucky. So what? 5 away is no big deal.