[Jlall]

Also I have never been able to get over the fact that this is all really unplayable if you can ever stop in 4 of a minor.

For instance, we want to double with 4H and a minor and game going values. But if the takeout Xers 4m response to the responsive double is non forcing, what does he do with a good hand? Seems like he can never bypass 4H with 4 hearts and a good hand, but he can't bid 4 of a minor non forcing with a good hand, so 4H can be a strong hand with 4 hearts, or any hand with 5 hearts? Doesn't seem great. The alternative of the takeout Xer jumping to 5 of a minor if he has 4 hearts and 5 of a minor is bad too if responsive Xer might have 4 hearts.

We also have the issue of slam bidding. If the takeout doubler has a strong hand but nothing is forcing and he doesn't know much about how the hands fit since the responsive doubler can have such a wide range of hands for that bid, he is forced to make a non forcing 4 level bid or a non forcing 5 level bid, the latter still having a wide range, or jumping to slam. Not great.

We also have the issue that responsive doubler might make a responsive double with a ONE suited minor hand, like AKQxxx of clubs and out, trying to get to 3N. That's great except what if the T/O double hand jumps to 5D expecting responder to have 2 suits? Not great.

Which reminds me of an auction Zia and Rosenberg had. It went:

2S X 3S X
P 5C p 5D
P ?

Rosenberg thought Zia should have diamonds and hearts, and corrected to 5H. Zia had like 6 solid diamonds and no spade stopper and now had to correct to 6D.

Basically there are just too many issues to resolve, and too many hand types to resolve. In my opinion the best solution that solves the most problems is to play the responsive double as game forcing. The t/o Xer never has to jump to 5 of aminor now, and responsive doubler can freely bid X then 4D forcing, etc.

Unfortunately I haven't sold anyone on this idea, because the fact is you need to get in there with some light responsive doubles and it sucks if you can't stop in 4 of a minor then. If you aren't getting there with working 9 counts you're just putting too much pressure on your partner. I think shrugging and getting too high when youre both min is your best option though. We've all gone down.

So basically, I have no Fing clue but this is a really complicated auction.

[Jlall]

Also I think that the people who think X then 4S or X then 4N will be interpretted as choice of games are dreaming.

[paulg]

Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 12:33 AM, said:

So basically, I have no Fing clue but this is a really complicated auction.

But it seems so simple, which is why none of us have actually discussed it in depth (as far as I can tell).

The actual hand is pretty irrelevant, as both LHO and partner had made calls that the panel would object to (especially the one that did not work), but I thought it was a really interesting situation.

Given number of issues raised, I just need to find another couple of 'simple' problems and there'll be enough material for a book!

[gnasher]

If you're willing to play double-4C-4D as forcing, then you can play

dbl-4m-4H = hearts + an unknown minor. Aggressor doesn't usually need to know what the minor is in order to decide whether to play 4♥.

dbl-4C-4D = doubt about strain - 4-3 or 5-3 in the minors, or a strong 3-card heart holding

[gnasher]

Jlall, on Sep 23 2009, 12:33 AM, said:

Basically there are just too many issues to resolve, and too many hand types to resolve. In my opinion the best solution that solves the most problems is to play the responsive double as game forcing. The t/o Xer never has to jump to 5 of aminor now, and responsive doubler can freely bid X then 4D forcing, etc.

Unfortunately I haven't sold anyone on this idea, because the fact is you need to get in there with some light responsive doubles and it sucks if you can't stop in 4 of a minor then. If you aren't getting there with working 9 counts you're just putting too much pressure on your partner. I think shrugging and getting too high when youre both min is your best option though. We've all gone down.

Are you suggesting this only after they opened a weak two, or after a one-level opening as well?

If you would double 1♠ on a 3433 13-count, you don't really want to drive the five-level with a 2344 10-count. Things won't usually be as bad as that, because you can usually rely on the opponents to have nine spades between them. However, if they knew that your responsive double would be game-forcing, they might start making more 3♠ raises.

[Jlall]

gnasher, on Sep 23 2009, 02:48 AM, said:

If you would double 1♠ on a 3433 13-count, you don't really want to drive the five-level with a 2344 10-count.  Things won't usually be as bad as that, because you can usually rely on the opponents to have nine spades between them.  However, if they knew that your responsive double would be game-forcing, they might start making more 3♠ raises.

I would routinely pass a responsive X with 3433 after 2S X 3S X so I hope they do start raising very aggressively

They are probably about 99 % to have a 9 card fit after 1S X 3S X though so I wouldn't always pass with 3433, but I often would.

Also are you implying you would bid 4C with 3433? If you would bid 4H you are in game already anyways. If you bid 4C you are only going to play partial if partner is passing that anyways so I don't see you as losing much. You might even play 4C down instead of 4H making that way when partner is 1354.